Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 81 (8950 total)
38 online now:
AZPaul3, DrJones*, Faith, Percy (Admin) (4 members, 34 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,364 Year: 22,400/19,786 Month: 963/1,834 Week: 33/430 Day: 33/63 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 15 of 657 (579901)
09-06-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
09-06-2010 10:04 AM


Re: Bump for Buz
Jar, unlike you, I don't do computer 24/7. I'm a very busy sole proprietor of a business involving some travel, do church stuff, garden and some ot other activities. I do computer, usually on the quick and off to other projects.

Just because I don't get to responses as soon as you think I should doesn't mean that I'm running off. Then, of course when evidence is aired, you simply waive it off as if none had been aired, so I don't see a lot of reason to even respond to some of what you're demanding.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 09-06-2010 10:04 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2010 2:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 17 by jar, posted 09-06-2010 3:20 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 19 of 657 (580008)
09-07-2010 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by frako
09-05-2010 4:24 PM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
lfrako writes:

im guessing 600 000 isrealites traveling trough the deserd would leave some trace, a row of pottery, lamb bones, stories of other kinggdoms having seen a whole mass of ppl lost and wandering trough the desert whitout a map and to proud to ask for directions. nothing simmilar anywhere
im also guessing sinc the egyptians where very burocratict that somwhre on an old parchemnt someonoe would find somthing simmilar to this: after the 600 000 isrealites left there is a large strawless brick shortage in eypt and the sorrounding lands prices for bricks whit straws have gone way up more taxsation is needed to build the nexst temple.

Hi Fraco. Welcome to EvC. After over three millenniums, what lamb bones left on the ground would you expect to find? Why should pottery be found? left by a relative fast moving troop of people in flight. What should you expect to find from nomads constantly on the move?

The Egyptians had a vested interest in admitting nothing of the Exodus and the disastrous results which would expose their vulnerability to their enemies.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by frako, posted 09-05-2010 4:24 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 9:06 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 21 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 9:08 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 22 by frako, posted 09-07-2010 9:08 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 23 by hooah212002, posted 09-07-2010 9:12 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 33 by frako, posted 09-07-2010 2:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 52 by greyseal, posted 09-08-2010 12:49 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 35 of 657 (580131)
09-07-2010 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
09-07-2010 10:16 AM


LOL, Jar. Your view of the Horeb Rock is very poor, appearing to be from an obscure angle. Here is what should be shown. Note that the bottom photo shows the waterway, depicting a waterflow from the rock, when, in fact, there is no natural explanation for the waterway.

Your other photos are totally irrevelant strawmen, in that none of them have a shred of corroborating Exodus evidence as does the Horeb Rock.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 9:55 PM Buzsaw has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 37 of 657 (580137)
09-07-2010 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Coragyps
09-07-2010 12:10 PM


Re: Calculations. Yay!
Coragyps writes:

They ate manna, not lambs. You need to be figuring how many scale insects need to be making honeydew from how many desert shrubs to feed that many people.

The manna came later, after the Red Sea Crossing. They came out of Egypt with their cattle, which would have been used for sin sacrifice, milk and meat as long as they lasted.

Exodus 10:26 ASV:

Our livestock too must go with us; not a hoof is to be left behind. We have to use some of them in worshiping the LORD our God, and until we get there we will not know what we are to use to worship the LORD."


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Coragyps, posted 09-07-2010 12:10 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:03 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 38 of 657 (580138)
09-07-2010 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
09-07-2010 9:55 PM


Jar, I've brought up the needful photos that you failed to cite. Believe what you want and let each look and go figure for themselves. The flow lasted at least long enough to erode a visible flow bed as shown.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 9:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:08 PM Buzsaw has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 41 of 657 (580148)
09-07-2010 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
09-07-2010 10:04 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
jar writes:

There is a claim that the altar of the golden calf was found, and that it also showed an Egyptian influence. This is the image used to support that assertion.

No golden calf was found that I'm aware of. What was found were these inscrptions at an alter site at the foot of Mt. Jabal el Lawz, the real Mt Sinai where it should be, Midian in Arabia. These inscriptions depict the golden calf.

jar writes:

There is nothing to suggest that it was ever an "altar" or that it has anything to do with calves, in fact there is not a single calf depicted on the whole face of the rock. The images themselves are common to much of the rock art found all around the Mediterranean from North Africa to Spain.

Not unless you show the sheeple the whole evidence as shown in the link of the pile of rocks in which the inscriptions exist.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:04 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:52 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 45 by bluescat48, posted 09-08-2010 1:13 AM Buzsaw has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 42 of 657 (580150)
09-07-2010 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
09-07-2010 10:08 PM


Re: Rock Images
jar writes:

Is this the image you want cited? If so, go back and look. I included it. If not, tell us which image you are talking about.

That's not the image you showed. Yours does not clearly show the waterway, being obstructed by the person standing in the way.

BTW, are you going to concede that there's no sign of corroborating evidence whatsoever in your stawmen examples of other rock formations?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:54 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 46 of 657 (580246)
09-08-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
09-07-2010 10:52 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
jar writes:

You mean like I did Buz?

Where?

jar writes:

Remember the columns he found?

They are Roman Buz.

Evidence?

There was even a Roman city at Aqaba and a Roman road that was part of a highway system that extended down both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba.

No Roman city at Nuweiba Beach that I am aware of. No Roman reason for a lone column on a beach.

No Buldozers, blasting powder, and earthmovers to build a coastal highway through the mountainous terrain North and South of Nuweiba Beach, Jar. Who's more ignorant, Jar, apprised region savvy Wyatt audiences or Jar?

jar writes:

think part of the problem is that Wyatt and most of the audiences that watch his nonsense are totally ignorant of teh history of the area.

The supposed deserted area the Hebrews wandered through had been settled by folk for many centuries, civilizations like the Edomites, Egyptians, and later the Romans, Greeks and Muslims.

Perhaps you can apprise the alleged ignorant on the timeframe of each civilized occupation and the extent of wilderness occupation and culture for each other than the role of nomadic herdsmen.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Huntard, posted 09-08-2010 10:40 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 50 by jar, posted 09-08-2010 11:13 AM Buzsaw has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 48 of 657 (580249)
09-08-2010 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by bluescat48
09-08-2010 1:13 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Bluescat writes:

Have you ever looked at a map of Southwest Asia? To get to Arabia, crossing the Red Sea and its closest point not going over Sinai, is ~100 miles. Otherwise to get to Arabia they would have had to cross the "Promised Land" or crossed the other arm of the sea and nowhere in Exodus does it state that.

LOL, Bluescat. Both arms of the Red Sea were The Red Sea, so the Biblical Record does not designate, other than context, which arm the crossing took place. Context says they crossed into Midian which was in Arabia, clearly implying what is now known as The Gulf Of Aqaba.

The NT also designates Arabia as the location of Mt Sinai. Tradition miss-named the Sinai Pinensula and miss-located Mt Sinai, contrary to the Biblical record and the evidence first discovered/pioneered by Ron Wyatt.

Not only that, but the topography described in the Biblical text only matches Nuweiba Beach, in that it had to have been big enough for a large number of people and that it had to be enclosed by mountains and accessable by a river/creek vally or wadi.

According to the record text, the Egyptians had the Israelites entrapped so as a Red Sea/Aqaba crossing was the only possible escape route.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by bluescat48, posted 09-08-2010 1:13 AM bluescat48 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by frako, posted 09-08-2010 10:58 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 09-08-2010 11:20 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 09-14-2010 2:17 AM Buzsaw has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 53 of 657 (580555)
09-10-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
09-08-2010 11:13 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
jar writes:

Buzsaw writes:

No Buldozers, blasting powder, and earthmovers to build a coastal highway through the mountainous terrain North and South of Nuweiba Beach, Jar. Who's more ignorant, Jar, apprised region savvy Wyatt audiences or Jar?

Good grief Buz. If the Romans could do anything at all, they could and did build roads. Everywhere. Ethiopia and Yemen were major sources for some spices and also gold.

Have a look, Jar, at the West Gulf Of Aqaba topography. And you think a coastal highway would or could have gone through that in ancient days?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 09-08-2010 11:13 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 9:37 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 473 by MiguelG, posted 04-12-2011 2:05 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 54 of 657 (580558)
09-10-2010 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by PaulK
09-08-2010 11:20 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
PaulK writes:

If Ron Wyatt thought that "Arabia" excluded the Sinai peninsula then Ron Wyatt was ignorant and wrong.

Paul, two things:

1. The Bible does not refer to the Sinai Peninsula as the Sinai Peninsula. I believe it was considered the "Wilderness of Sin" or something like that.

2. A map of the land of the Midianites, shows it as the whole wilderness area East of What is now known as the Gulf of Aqaba (then, a wing of the Red Sea. )

It is my understanding that what later became known as part of Arabia was, in Moses's day, known as the land of Midian.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 09-08-2010 11:20 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Huntard, posted 09-10-2010 1:06 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2010 1:53 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 60 by bluescat48, posted 09-10-2010 1:29 PM Buzsaw has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 61 of 657 (580731)
09-10-2010 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Huntard
09-10-2010 1:06 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Huntard writes:

Yes. but Sinai is also a part of Arabia, so sources saying that the mountain was located "in Arabia", does not help your cause one bit.

What is relative here is what is not what the Sinai Peninsula is called today. What is relative is that it was known as the Wilderness of Paran in Old Testament times. The East side of the Gulf of Aqaba was known as the land of the Midianites who occupied that region.

The text has Moses encountering his father-in-law in the land of Midian where Mt Sinai was, after crossing the Red Sea. Go Figure; or are you denying all of this?.

Are you denying that the Sinai Peninsula was not known as the Sinai Peninsula in Moses's day?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Huntard, posted 09-10-2010 1:06 AM Huntard has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 62 of 657 (580737)
09-10-2010 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by bluescat48
09-10-2010 1:29 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Bluescat writes:

When the Israelites reached Sinai, they were in Midian.

That's because, according to the Biblical record, Mt Sinai was in the land of Midian in Western Arabia bordering the East Gulf of Aqaba, then known as a wing of the Red Sea.

Everything jives nicely with the Biblical record, with all of the corroborating evidence where it should be expected to be according the the Biblical record.

It was the Biblical record that led amature explorer/archeologist, Ron Wyatt to the region where he pioneered the discovery of this evidence. More professional people with marine research equipment picked up where Wyatt, Fassold and others left off.

Alas, the secular world has no interest in anything Biblical. The secular world seeks to undermine it an debunk it so as not to be held accountable to a higher power.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by bluescat48, posted 09-10-2010 1:29 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 9:48 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 64 of 657 (580747)
09-10-2010 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
09-10-2010 1:53 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
PaulK writes:

Irrelevant. The point is that in NT times "Arabia" included Sinai and so when the NT places Mount Sinai in "Arabia" it does NOT exclude the traditional location. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant.

Are you keeping up, Paul? The land of Midian waswhere Moses encountered his father-in-law, Jethro who was a Midianite after he crossed the Red Sea.

The Wilderness of Paran is what the Sinai Peninsula was known as and not as Arabia perse. Had Moses crossed the Red Sea anywhere else he would not have ended up in the land of Midian.

2. A map of the land of the Midianites, shows it as the whole wilderness area East of What is now known as the Gulf of Aqaba (then, a wing of the Red Sea. )
It is my understanding that what later became known as part of Arabia was, in Moses's day, known as the land of Midian.

PaulK writes:

So, since Exodus implies that Mount Sinai is not in Midian it looks that Wyatt is wrong.

(Note also that your source claims:

During the time of the Exodus, their territory apparently also included portions of the Sinai Peninsula.

Sigh. Again, the real Mt Sinai was/is in what was known as the land of Midian, nomadic herdsmen and the book of Exodus does not imply that Mt Sinai is not in the land of Midian, that I am aware of. What is your source?

PaulK writes:

I also note that you provide no evidence of any Biblical reference to mountains with a wadi or dry river providing a route through for the crossing site. May I take it that you concede that there is no such reference ?

Go figure. The text says that they were able to travel to the crossing site and that they were entrapped with no way out but back from where they came (where the persuing army was) or into the sea. The text also clearly implies that the area in which they were entrapped was large enough for a large amount of people. It also clearly implies that it was across the sea from the land of Midian. They had to be entrapped by the rugged terrain through which a wadi likely cut a valley so as to get to the sea and entrap themselves with no other exit.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2010 1:53 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by bluescat48, posted 09-11-2010 1:05 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 68 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2010 3:13 AM Buzsaw has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 65 of 657 (580750)
09-10-2010 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
09-10-2010 9:37 AM


Re: Jar's Strawmen
None of the above are revelant, Jar. The only topography which is revelant is the Western Gulf of Aqaba shoreline.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 9:37 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 10:14 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019