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Author
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Topic: Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 302 of 657 (602898)
02-01-2011 3:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 300 by Buzsaw
02-01-2011 3:17 PM
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Re: Midian's Double Location Explained
Buzsaw writes: jar writes: And "Midian" included both the Arabian and Suez peninsula, remember, your very own link supported that. I checked that out, Jar. From what I could research, it was the wrong traditional Mt Sinai which propagated the assumption that part of Media included Mt. Sinai. Who ever propagated the traditional Mt Sinai named both the mountain and the peninsula as "Sinai" and went from that to assume Midian was in the peninsula to accommodate their interpretation of the Biblical Exodus. Thus some of the maps showing Midian in two locations. This is how one falsehood leads to another. I seriously doubt that you did check that out Buz or even do any research and that this 8is just another of your unsupported fantasies. It is possible that I might be wrong but in that case you will be able to present the evidence in support of your position. I look forward to examining that evidence.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 300 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2011 3:17 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 308 of 657 (602915)
02-01-2011 4:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 307 by Buzsaw
02-01-2011 4:48 PM
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Re: Wyatt's Sin: He Kicked Too Many Butts.
Buzsaw writes: The reason Wyatt and Lennart Moller have been decried by Christian constituencies like our darling, ICR is that he kicked too many elitist ideological butts. Wyatt, the nobody non-professional anesthesia administrator for a hospital falsified the highly educated elitist professionals. He committed the ideological unpardonable sin. No, he is decried because he faked and falsified data.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 307 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2011 4:48 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 312 of 657 (602940)
02-01-2011 6:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 309 by Buzsaw
02-01-2011 5:01 PM
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Re: Which Map Do We Go With?
Buzsaw writes: Some maps specify Arabia Petraea and others do not, depending on the purpose of the map. I stand by the argument that the NT writers were aware of the province of Arabia Petraea not being part and parcel of Arabia proper. I maintain that the traditional Mt Sinai has no corroborating evidence for being the Biblical Mt Sinai, so regardless of the Arabia debate, Nuweiba trumps the Sinai Peninsula Hypothesis. First, Arabia Petraea would include the Nuweiba area since it covered both side of the Gulf of Aqaba.
quote:
Arabia Petraea, also called Provincia Arabia or simply Arabia, was a frontier province of the Roman Empire beginning in the 2nd century; it consisted of the former Nabataean kingdom in modern Jordan, southern modern Syria, the Sinai Peninsula and northwestern Saudi Arabia. Its capital was Petra. It was bordered on the north by Syria, on the west by Iudaea and Aegyptus.
Arabia Petraea shown in Red. from Wiki Second, it was but one of three divisions that together made up Arabia. The other two were Arabia Deserta and Arabia Felix. Third, you have presented NO corroborating evidence no matter how many times you claim it.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 309 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2011 5:01 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 316 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2011 10:50 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 322 of 657 (603033)
02-02-2011 11:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 320 by Aurora
02-02-2011 6:06 AM
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Re: Bump for Buz
Aurora writes: Buzsaw writes:
Where have you been in this thread. The name of the scientist, Lennart Moller of Sweden is all over the thread and there is some of his photography as well. Google Exodus Video and you should get some excerpts of the video. There are other videos at Ron Wyatt's home site as well. Some of them have been embellished as I understand. Others have not. If you don't find what you're looking for, get back to me and I'll see what I can do for you. I am a christian but with so many false claims coming from the christian circles I think I have become a skeptical christian. Here also I googled and checked who Ron Wyatt was and got this:
Wikipedia writes: Ronald Eldon Wyatt (1933 — August 4, 1999) was an adventurer and former nurse anaesthetist noted for advocating the Durupınar site as the site of Noah's Ark, among other Bible-related pseudoarchaeology. His claims were dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars, and even by leaders in his own Seventh-day Adventist Church, but his work continues to have a following among some fundamentalists and evangelicals. So, I simply decided not to take him or any one supporting his claim seriously. If there is Corroborating independent research findings which is reviewed and largely agreed upon by the scientific community, then I have no reason to reject. Also, as pointed out way back in Message 25, Ron Wyatt falsified and fudged the evidence on many, many occasions. He also purposefully excluded evidence that refuted his position.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 320 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 6:06 AM | | Aurora has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 324 of 657 (603041)
02-02-2011 12:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 323 by Buzsaw
02-02-2011 12:33 PM
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Re: Mt Sinai and Evidence.
Buzsaw writes: In order to keep discussion focused on Mt. Sinai for now I have hidden content that addressed other issues. --Admin The apostle Paul, who said Mt Sinai was in Arabia was likely the most educated of all of the apostles. His statement about location referred to a specific mountain. If an author of a book were to would state where Mt Rainier was located, one would not answer by saying it is in the US. The author would specify that It is located in the state of Washington. If an author would state where the Matterhorn was, the author would not say it was in Europe. One would say it is in Switzerland. By the same token, Paul, the educated one would not likely have written to the Galations that Mt Sinai was in Arabia, if indeed it was in a province of Arabia or Arabia Petraea. When ever the apostle Paul referred to a church, a nation or the location of something specific located in Europe, he did not say that it was in Europe He would specify the location in Europe. When he or Jesus designated the location of something specific in Israel, they would say it was in Judea or Samaria, etc rather than saying it was in Israel perse. Why should it be argued that generalizing the location of the mountain, Mt Sinai should be an exception?
Of all of the participants in this debate, the one who has produced the most corroborating evidence is Buzsaw, yet it is Buzsaw who is the one among us all to be hounded and dogged for not having produced evidence. I can see it now. Down line, after this another Exodus thread is all said and done it will be deja vu. "Liar BS'saw has never ever cited any evidence for the Exodus." GOD BLESS MOOSE! At least he has stepped forward to acknowledge that I had cited evidence regardless of whether it conformed to his view. None of you my secularist counterparts or creationist skeptics have produced as much evidence to counter my ducks in a row of corroborated evidence for the Nuweiba crossing as I have cited. Jar's bogus split rock examples, none of which showed water flows and none of which were preceded and followed by anything pertaining to the Exodus, are the kind of responses which I've had to spend my time dealing with, all the while being singled out along the way about posting evidence. Admittedly, some of you have presented some debatable arguments. However, none of them have empirically falsified my own position. As for the creationists, none of you/them have offered any corroborative evidence for the traditional Mt Sinai. No other site fits the ticket like the Nuweiba site does. Ringo makes the blind assertion that Nuweiba was too far. Given the head start, robust condition of the formerly brick making Israelites and provision for night travel etc, Nuweiba would have been doable. Chapter and verse please Buz supporting Paul's assertions that MT Sinai is not on the Sinai Peninsula. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 323 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2011 12:33 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 327 of 657 (603050)
02-02-2011 1:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 326 by PaulK
02-02-2011 1:27 PM
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Re: Mt Sinai and Evidence.
PaulK writes: quote:
His statement about location referred to a specific mountain. If an author of a book were to would state where Mt Rainier was located, one would not answer by saying it is in the US. The author would specify that It is located in the state of Washington. If an author would state where the Matterhorn was, the author would not say it was in Europe. One would say it is in Switzerland. By the same token, Paul, the educated one would not likely have written to the Galations that Mt Sinai was in Arabia, if indeed it was in a province of Arabia or Arabia Petraea.
By this logic since "Arabia" is LESS specific than "Arabia Petraea" (since it INCLUDES Arabia Petraea) we must conclude that Paul could not give a more specific location. And if the educated Apostle Paul could not even narrow the location down so far as one of the parts of Arabia, the NT is of virtually no use at all in establishing the location - and thus your appeal to it is futile. Or alternatively, you are wrong to suppose that he cared about the exact location. Galatians 4 is not about geography. Either way Galations 4 offers no support to your claim and cannot be counted as "corrborating evidence." Plus, as pointed out back in Message 312, the term Arabia Petraea includes both potential sites anyway. It also includes all of the Sinai Peninsula. Buz has nothing. If he wishes to say that the site is NOT in Arabia Petraea then he eliminates both sites and the real Mount Sinai must be in either Arabia Felix or Arabia Deserta, the former what today would be Lebanon and northern Syria, the latter the great Arabian Desert.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 326 by PaulK, posted 02-02-2011 1:27 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 331 of 657 (603184)
02-03-2011 9:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 330 by Buzsaw
02-03-2011 8:24 AM
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Egypt
Buz, there is no nation of Arabia, never has been. At the time the mythological Exodus happened all of Canaan, the Sinai, both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba were Egyptian territory.
From Wiki. But that is still irrelevant to calling the area Arabia. Arabia is a geographic term just as Africa would be, not a nationality.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 330 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 8:24 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 332 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 11:20 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 333 of 657 (603208)
02-03-2011 11:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 332 by Buzsaw
02-03-2011 11:20 AM
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Re: Territories
Buzsaw writes: jar writes: Buz, there is no nation of Arabia, never has been. At the time the mythological Exodus happened all of Canaan, the Sinai, both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba were Egyptian territory.
From Wiki. But that is still irrelevant to calling the area Arabia. Arabia is a geographic term just as Africa would be, not a nationality. The map does not show that Canaan and Syria etc were Egyptian, just because the colors imply that. They were separate and indigenous Kingdoms from Egypt. I understand that Arabia was then not a nation. You did not address my question. When did Sinai become a province of Arabia? All of this carries a relatively small role in the Nuweiba hypothesis, in that there is plenty of other corroborated evidence to support the Nuweiba Exodus event. Bottom line in all that has been debated in this and other Exodus threads: Nobody can henceforth truthfully allege that Buzsaw has cited no supportive I say supportive evidence for the Biblical Exodus. That is not to say that all should be expected to acknowledge that supportive evidence. Sinai has NEVER been a province of Arabia. There has never been a nation of Arabia. Sinai has always been a geographic part of Arabia. And of course we can claim that Buz has never presented any evidence that the Exodus ever happened that has not been soundly refuted. Edited by jar, : finish last sentence
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 332 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 11:20 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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where's the wheel?
Catholic Scientist writes: Bottom line in all that has been debated in this and other Exodus threads: Nobody can henceforth truthfully allege that Buzsaw has cited no supportive I say supportive evidence for the Biblical Exodus. I don't think so, because you did it wrong. Message 283 Reading the Exodus, interpreting the story, guessing at the location, and then finding a wheel... The wheel is not supportive evidence that the Exodus happened. Its a post-hoc rationalization of something neat that you found. If you're not eliminating other possibilities for the wheel then you're not supporting anything. If, and it is a really big if, the wheel actually even exists.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 336 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 2:08 PM | | New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 339 of 657 (603261)
02-03-2011 2:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 338 by Coragyps
02-03-2011 2:23 PM
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Re: where's the wheel?
Coragyps writes: If, and it is a really big if, the wheel actually even exists. You doubt the word of a Julliard-trained anaesthisist!!??? [/channeling Kramer] Me doubt someone that has been shown to fake and create data and ignore and suppress any evidence that refutes his assertions and fantasies? Heaven forefend!!!!!!!
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 338 by Coragyps, posted 02-03-2011 2:23 PM | | Coragyps has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 341 of 657 (603264)
02-03-2011 2:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 340 by PaulK
02-03-2011 2:40 PM
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Re: where's the wheel?
Ah yes, "THAT" wheel.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 340 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2011 2:40 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 349 of 657 (603336)
02-03-2011 9:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 348 by Buzsaw
02-03-2011 9:19 PM
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Re: where's the wheel?
Buzsaw writes: ringo writes: Buzsaw writes: And if you need a good look at the debris, take five minutes or so and watch Lennart Mollart's claimed evidence.
That video is a waste of time. All it shows is a recreation of what Moller expected to find. You're not making a lot of sense, Ringo. I'm sure he was aware of the pioneer work that had been done by Wyatt, Fassold and others. He did fully expect to find evidence there. Did your eyes and mind hone in on that phenomenal, in tact, axle and wheel table like form in the video? If so, tell the folks why or why not it appeared to be in the shape of an axle and wheels. It's called anvil and table coral Buz, quite common.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 348 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 9:19 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 363 of 657 (603414)
02-04-2011 12:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 362 by Buzsaw
02-04-2011 12:00 PM
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Re: Buzsaw To All:
You do understand that the research on the Black Sea flooding is yet more evidence that the Biblical Flood never happened don't you? So where is there any evidence of those alleged wheels?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 362 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2011 12:00 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 364 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2011 12:20 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 365 of 657 (603425)
02-04-2011 12:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 364 by Buzsaw
02-04-2011 12:20 PM
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Re: Buzsaw To All:
Buzsaw writes: jar writes: You do understand that the research on the Black Sea flooding is yet more evidence that the Biblical Flood never happened don't you? Both have corroborative evidence. Yes. Both also lack some research which should disallow both from claiming the status of theory. Btw, the clip which I provided shows Mollar's scientific method of falsification. He researched the Red Sea topography in the region of the long acclaimed traditional Mt Sinai, finding it much deeper and more rugged, lacking any corroborative evidence. Thus he falsified it as a possibility, leaving the Nuweiba site being more shallow and having the corroborating evidence supportive to the Biblical record. Again Buz, simply claiming that you have corroborating evidence does not mean that you have any corroborating evidence. There actually IS evidence that the Black Sea was flooded and ther actually is evidence that totally refutes the Biblical Flood. Now it is your opportunity to present some evidence. For example, where is there ANY evidence that there are any chariot wheels and that they are related to the alleged Exodus?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 364 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2011 12:20 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 373 of 657 (603534)
02-04-2011 9:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 372 by DrJones*
02-04-2011 9:36 PM
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Re: Buzsaw To All:
DrJones* writes: Robert Ballard, the National Geographic, along with geologists Ryan & Putnam have expressed no interest in falsifying the phenomenal evidence widely alleged pertaining to Lennart Moller's Exodus research.
What makes you think Ballard et. al are even aware of Moller's "research"? What does "phenomenal evidence widely alleged pertaining to Lennart Moller's Exodus research" even mean?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 372 by DrJones*, posted 02-04-2011 9:36 PM | | DrJones* has not replied |
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