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Author Topic:   What is Life?
GDR
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Posts: 4908
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 197 of 268 (598256)
12-29-2010 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by jar
12-29-2010 6:13 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
jar writes:

First, evolution is simply change over time.

Agreed

jar writes:

Second, it is NOT directed.

That is opinion which goes beyond the T of E.

jar writes:

Third there is no directionality.

Again, that is opinion

jar writes:

Fourth, what we see is simply what has succeeded.

Which goes back to the last two points. The theory is a theory as to what happened, not why it happened. It is no different that the scientific answers for how the universe was formed. Science can observe what happened and even how it happened but it can only speculate between random chance, directionality or some combination of the two.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 12-29-2010 6:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2010 6:52 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 199 by jar, posted 12-29-2010 6:58 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4908
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 217 of 268 (598558)
01-01-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by jar
12-29-2010 6:58 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
jar writes:

How? Why is it opinion? Is there any evidence of some directed force?

I didn't claim that there was. There is also no evidence that there isn't. Whether there is or isn't is as I said just opinion.

jar writes:

No, it is observation. We see things becoming more complex and less complex. No directionality.

The earth evolved from the basic elements and life evolved to where we are today. That sure looks like directionality to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by jar, posted 12-29-2010 6:58 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 11:49 AM GDR has responded
 Message 227 by nwr, posted 01-01-2011 3:01 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4908
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 219 of 268 (598568)
01-01-2011 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jar
01-01-2011 11:49 AM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
jar writes:

And things are also moving from more complex to less complex. Uranium decays to lead.

And life forms have evolved from less complex to more complex.

jar writes:

If you are simply selecting out those things that seem to support YOUR desired outcome, what is that called?

I don't have desired outcome. You had made the following assertion.

jar writes:

First, evolution is simply change over time.

Second, it is NOT directed.

Third there is no directionality.

I merely pointed out that your view that evolution is not directed is just opinion. (Presumably your desired outcome) It was you that made the assertion.

There is no scientific evidence either way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 11:49 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 12:35 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4908
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 221 of 268 (598574)
01-01-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by jar
01-01-2011 12:35 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
jar writes:

There is scientific evidence that it is the result of mutation (including variations) filtered by Natural Selection.


I agree

jar writes:

There is NO evidence for some intervention force.

And again, there is no evidence that there isn't. It is opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 12:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 12:48 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4908
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 223 of 268 (598579)
01-01-2011 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by jar
01-01-2011 12:48 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
jar writes:

There is evidence for one and no evidence for the other.

What is the evidence that evolution guided by natural selection isn't directed?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 12:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 1:03 PM GDR has responded
 Message 233 by Blue Jay, posted 01-01-2011 8:45 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4908
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 225 of 268 (598589)
01-01-2011 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by jar
01-01-2011 1:03 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
jar writes:

That what we see can be explained without the necessity of some critter meddling and no evidence of even a model for how the meddler might intervene.

That isn't evidence for some critter, as you like to put it, not meddling. It is your opinion.

jar writes:

But again, what does that have to do with the question "What is life"?

My posts have been in response to what you wrote so I should be asking the question of you. However, there were statements made at the beginning by others such as the first one that said:

quote:
Life imo is a emergent property of energy.

which is obviously trying to make the materialistic case, and that seemed to be accepted as answering the question.

My only point is that you made a statement that was intended to be read as fact for which you have no evidence and is strictly your opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 1:03 PM jar has responded

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 Message 226 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 1:28 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4908
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 228 of 268 (598633)
01-01-2011 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by nwr
01-01-2011 3:01 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
nwr writes:

Suppose I go on a random walk, making a random choice at each step. You happen to be watching, though you are unaware that I am making random choices. If you describe my walk, you will very likely describe it as directional.

Sure but it would only be a best guess as I have no concrete evidence as to whether it is random or carefully planned.

Yes, I believe in guided evolution, or at least designed evolution, but I'm not arguing for that. I agree that is just my opinion but so is the view that there is no design or guidance in the evolutionary process.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by nwr, posted 01-01-2011 3:01 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4908
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 234 of 268 (598710)
01-01-2011 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Blue Jay
01-01-2011 8:45 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
Hi Bluejay

You're right in that the subject changed. The original post that I was referring to was this in jar's post 191.

quote:
First, evolution is simply change over time.

Second, it is NOT directed.

Third there is no directionality.

Fourth, what we see is simply what has succeeded.


My argument was with his second point. As far as directionality is concerned then if that is what jar meant then I am fine with that.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Blue Jay, posted 01-01-2011 8:45 PM Blue Jay has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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