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Author Topic:   Faith healing: why does god need to asked to heal people?
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 63 (579555)
09-05-2010 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phage0070
09-04-2010 10:06 PM


If you consider prayers which come about, are "answered", as being proof of God's existence then do you consider unanswered prayers proof that God does not exist?
Since you don't, how can that be anything but confirmation bias?
didn't say that did i? if one sees thousands of answered prayers then obviously they must come to the conclusion that God exists and is active with His creation.
to leave that belief over unanswered prayers shows a selfishness in the departing person because they could not accept the answer granted.
it has nothing to do with God but the attitude of the person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phage0070, posted 09-04-2010 10:06 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phage0070, posted 09-05-2010 12:54 AM archaeologist has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 63 (579559)
09-05-2010 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 12:44 AM


archaeologist writes:
didn't say that did i? if one sees thousands of answered prayers then obviously they must come to the conclusion that God exists and is active with His creation.
Really? Even if thats out of tens of millions unanswered?
It has everything to do with determining if God is any more reliable than random chance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 12:44 AM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 3:24 AM Phage0070 has replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 63 (579579)
09-05-2010 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phage0070
09-05-2010 12:54 AM


Really? Even if thats out of tens of millions unanswered?
It has everything to do with determining if God is any more reliable than random chance.
archaeologist writes:
didn't say that did i? if one sees thousands of answered prayers then obviously they must come to the conclusion that God exists and is active with His creation.
Really? Even if thats out of tens of millions unanswered?
It has everything to do with determining if God is any more reliable than random chance.
you need to understand something, in christianity every prayer IS answered. when people claim it is unanswered and leave the faith, all they are saying is-- we did not get the answer we wanted or expected.
God is not a santa claus whose only job is to answer prayers like handing out candy cane. believers are not going to be spoiled by God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phage0070, posted 09-05-2010 12:54 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phage0070, posted 09-05-2010 3:34 AM archaeologist has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 63 (579582)
09-05-2010 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 3:24 AM


archaeologist writes:
we did not get the answer we wanted or expected.
How exactly is this distinguishable from there not being a being there at all, or a being that is indifferent to prayer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 3:24 AM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 7:10 AM Phage0070 has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3730 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 20 of 63 (579586)
09-05-2010 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by archaeologist
09-04-2010 6:42 PM


then why did you leave God?
I didn't. I cannot leave something that does not exist. I simply finally had the courage to leave childish ways behind.
is God bound to answer only the way you want? cannot God say 'no' or 'not at this time' or 'your request is corrupted by the wrong motive'?
You missunderstand - there were no answered prayers, only simple random chance and confirmation bias.
God does exist you just let your doubt allow evil to lead you astray.
No. As with most Christians, I experienced doubt all through my 23 years as a believer. I no longer have any doubts. As sure as you know you are right (and you are so very sure), I know you are wrong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by archaeologist, posted 09-04-2010 6:42 PM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 7:07 AM cavediver has replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 63 (579604)
09-05-2010 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by cavediver
09-05-2010 4:16 AM


cannot leave something that does not exist
yet you can't say that as you cannot prove those prayers were unanswered. nor can you say that because you have not been to every place in the world at the same time to make sure He wasn't avoiding you.
I simply finally had the courage to leave childish ways behind.
for what? a process that does not exist? a false belief? or your own way? all of which offers you nothing.
You missunderstand - there were no answered prayers, only simple random chance and confirmation bias.
prove it.
No. As with most Christians, I experienced doubt all through my 23 years as a believer. I no longer have any doubts
i have no doubts so we know your statement is in error. yes you do, you doubt that God exists, you do not know it because you cannot prove it true.
I am sure God is right, has little to do with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by cavediver, posted 09-05-2010 4:16 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by cavediver, posted 09-05-2010 7:24 AM archaeologist has replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 63 (579605)
09-05-2010 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phage0070
09-05-2010 3:34 AM


How exactly is this distinguishable from there not being a being there at all,
who said He wasn't there? again you make judgements based upon the idea that te prayers were not answered your way, yet God is not limited to your way.
or a being that is indifferent to prayer?
who said He was indifferent? again you are basing this condemnation upon not getting what you want or someone not getting what they want. it sounds more like a temper tantrum from a spoiled child than a rational argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phage0070, posted 09-05-2010 3:34 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phage0070, posted 09-05-2010 11:48 AM archaeologist has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3730 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 23 of 63 (579607)
09-05-2010 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 7:07 AM


Arch writes:
yet you can't say that as you cannot prove those prayers were unanswered. nor can you say that because you have not been to every place in the world at the same time to make sure He wasn't avoiding you.
you are quite correct - but any god that wants to play silly games like that can go fuck himself - why would I want to worship a being that has less love and empathy for the World than me?
CD writes:
I simply finally had the courage to leave childish ways behind.
Arch writes:
for what? a process that does not exist? a false belief? or your own way? all of which offers you nothing.
I don't need to be offered anything. I am owed nothing. I am alive, I experience. That is all.
CD writes:
You missunderstand - there were no answered prayers, only simple random chance and confirmation bias.
Arch writes:
prove it.
That's the point - I can't prove (or even begin to support) that prayers are "answered" more frequently than random chance would suggest. Your god is no better than random chance, so why waste your time worshipping that?
CD writes:
No. As with most Christians, I experienced doubt all through my 23 years as a believer.
Arch writes:
i have no doubts so we know your statement is in error.
Ah, you are obviously unaware of the word "most". Your one data point does not discount a "most". You, my friend, are rather extreme in the world of evangelical Christians - you are very far from typical.
Arch writes:
yes you do, you doubt that God exists
There is no doubt The evangelical Christian god does not exist. Sorry. But the Universe is still a beautiful place...
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 7:07 AM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 5:18 PM cavediver has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 24 of 63 (579634)
09-05-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 12:40 AM


In other words, your god really dislikes amputees.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 12:40 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 63 (579653)
09-05-2010 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 7:10 AM


archaeologist writes:
who said He wasn't there? ... who said He was indifferent?
Please keep in mind the rules of the forum which discourage ad hominem attacks. I have made no claims either about your god existing, or being indifferent. I simply asked how the behavior you propose your god has for prayer can be distinguished from one that does not exist, or is indifferent.
It might be that the method and track record your god uses to answer prayer does not make it possible to determine that there is any intelligence behind the behavior, and that you hold your beliefs about prayer for other reasons. I am simply trying to address the claim that cavediver witnessing a small portion of prayers apparently being granted should somehow be compelling proof to him/her that your god exists and is active.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 7:10 AM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 5:07 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 63 (579692)
09-05-2010 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phage0070
09-05-2010 11:48 AM


It might be that the method and track record your god uses to answer prayer does not make it possible to determine that there is any intelligence behind the behavior
practice what you preach in your first paragraph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phage0070, posted 09-05-2010 11:48 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phage0070, posted 09-05-2010 7:30 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 63 (579694)
09-05-2010 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by cavediver
09-05-2010 7:24 AM


but any god that wants to play silly games like that can go fuck himself - why would I want to worship a being that has less love and empathy for the World than me?
yup the spoiled child syndrome. didn't get what he wanted so he throws a tantrum and false accusations to boot.
I can't prove (or even begin to support) that prayers are "answered" more frequently than random chance would suggest. Your god is no better than random chance, so why waste your time worshipping that?
you made the charge, the burden of proof is upon you. oh and there are ways to prove that God did it.
{right, so if i supposedly do not follow the rules of this board i am attacked and suspended yet if you do not, it is okay. i see how it goes here}
Your one data point does not discount a "most". You, my friend, are rather extreme in the world of evangelical Christians - you are very far from typical.
yes i am. that is because i am not evangelical because the Bible doesn't make those type of distinctions. you are either a follower, believer of God or you are not. there is no middle ground with God.
i put the Bible ahead of all fields of study and i do not compromise what i believe. whichis why i can say there is no micro-evolution either--can't be because whenGod created he saw it was good so there is no need for micro-changes to improve any species.
most evangelicals want the what the world offers or try to appease unbelievers, i do neither. if you do not like the message of God then that is your choice i cannot change it to something you like-- whichmeans that i cannot always meet the demand of 'secular scientific evidence' because secular science is far too limited and its demands are far too unrealistic.
There is no doubt The evangelical Christian god does not exist
the fool has said in his heart there is no God. God exists and He wrote the Bible, it is just that unbelievers will not see it because no matter what a believer does they doubt, deny, and disbelieve so it is no wonder they would make statements lik eyours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by cavediver, posted 09-05-2010 7:24 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by cavediver, posted 09-05-2010 5:42 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 30 by bluescat48, posted 09-05-2010 6:04 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 32 by caldron68, posted 09-05-2010 8:06 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 821 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 28 of 63 (579696)
09-05-2010 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 12:40 AM


God isn't going to use a miracle of regrowing a limb every time.
No foolin'? Document one single case, Arch. In mammals, not salamanders.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 12:40 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3730 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 29 of 63 (579698)
09-05-2010 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 5:18 PM


yup the spoiled child syndrome. didn't get what he wanted so he throws a tantrum and false accusations to boot.
Huh? Didn't get what I wanted? I'm ashamed of how much I have compared to most - amazing family, wealth, health, and contentment in my place in the Universe.
you made the charge, the burden of proof is upon you. oh and there are ways to prove that God did it.
You know how to *prove* that God is behind something?
And you are not sharing this here at EvC, where it could convince the 1000s who read this site of God's existence? Get typing!
it is just that unbelievers will not see it because no matter what a believer does they doubt, deny, and disbelieve so it is no wonder they would make statements lik eyours.
But I was a believer for many many years - and I'm telling them to doubt, deny, and disbelieve - you have nothing but your own personal crutch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 5:18 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4276 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 30 of 63 (579701)
09-05-2010 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 5:18 PM


i put the Bible ahead of all fields of study and i do not compromise what i believe.
That is the problem. The Bible isn't evidence. It is hearsay testimony.
oh and there are ways to prove that God did it.
So list some.
Edited by bluescat48, : added sentence

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 5:18 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
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