Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is there any proof of beneficial mutations?
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 27 of 166 (579596)
09-05-2010 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
09-05-2010 12:47 AM


I'm with Wounded King, this is an example of colonial behaviour emerging in a unicellular organism not the emergence of a multicellular organism. Boraas et al do suggest that it's a possible starting point for multicellularity in a later paper* but there's no cellular differentiation, and the colony reproduces as individuals, not as a collective. In fact pretty much the only difference is in cell adhesion.
* - Boraas M.E., Seale, D.B.,Boxhorn, J.E. (1998) Phagotrophy by a flagellate selects for colonial prey: A possible origin of multicellularity Evolution Ecology 12(2), pp.153-164
Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2010 12:47 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2010 12:40 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 47 of 166 (579809)
09-06-2010 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dogmafood
09-06-2010 1:34 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
I dont mean to imply consciousness but does this not suggest it? Why should mutations increase when the organism is under stress?
I can think of four reasons off the top of my head:
1. The repair of DNA is an extremely energy intensive, and on-going, process. At times of stress organisms may divert some of the energy invested in maintaining the health of DNA into more immediately vital functions.
2. Many stressors will themselves directly damage DNA. This is often why they're stressors at all.
3. Stressors that occur during mitosis can disrupt the process, resulting in copy errors, replication slippage (causing duplication or deletion errors) or the misseperation of plasmids, and proteins into the two daughter cells.
4. Organisms will often respond to stress by commencing the synthesis of many new proteins. In order for genes to be expressed, the DNA coding them has to be unwound, and the strands separated so that the antisense strand can be accessed for transcription. During these processes the DNA is more vulnerable to damage than usual.
Although, I'll note my disagreement with AZPaul3 when he says "a colony of bacteria will often quicken their individual mutation rates in hopes of hitting on some useful mutation before the colony dies out completely". I do not think there is any particularly credible reason to think the increase in mutation rates is adaptive rather than simply a consequence of the circumstances.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Dogmafood, posted 09-06-2010 1:34 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Wounded King, posted 09-06-2010 9:45 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 91 of 166 (580479)
09-09-2010 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Taq
09-08-2010 11:39 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
If it was present in the single bacterium that was the founder of the entire population then nearly the entire population (more than 99.999%) would be resistant. They weren't. Only one in 10 billion were antibiotic resistant after the culture had increased in number over time.
Also, using negative plating, you can specifically choose a founder population that you know, for a fact, is not resistant. Doing it this was you can be quite sure that any resistant bacteria found later must have emerged by mutation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Taq, posted 09-08-2010 11:39 AM Taq has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


(2)
Message 112 of 166 (580617)
09-10-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Bolder-dash
09-10-2010 9:06 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Do you know specifically what does the mutation that makes one immune to Aids do?
Wounded King has alluded to the CCR5 Δ32 variant in his reply. I am not sure whether this is the mutation that Greyseal referred to, but having just finished a course on how genetic variation effects HIV susceptibility and performed lab experiments specifically into the Δ32 mutation in human cell lines it's one I happen to know quite a bit about.
The HIV-1 virus enters human immune cells by binding to two surface receptors, one is called CD4, the other is either CCR5 or CXCR4. CCR5 binding is usually involved in the initial infection and early stages of the disease, CXCR4 binding in the late stages. CCR5 is a cell surface receptor involved in immune system signalling, and part of a family of receptors referred to as 7TMs because the protein crosses the plasma membrane that forms the cell surface seven times.
In the CCR5 Δ32 variant a 32 base pair section of the CCR5 gene has been deleted. As you'll doubtless be aware, DNA is "read" in codons of 3 base pairs at a time, each coding for an amino acid. Because 32 is not a multiple of 3, this deletion produces what is called a frame shift meaning that the codons after the deletion are read in a different fashion. In the particular case of the CCR5 Δ32 variant this frame shift produces a stop codon shortly after the deletion. A stop codon being, of course, one of the three codons that does not code for an amino acid but instead triggers translation of the protein to stop.
Now, human cells (like other eukaryotic cells) have a mechanism for detecting damaged protein transcripts and genes called nonsense-mediated decay in which gene transcripts that contain multiple stop codons are marked for destruction before they can be converted into proteins. It is thought that this mechanism means the CCR5 Δ32 protein is never produced (certainly none has been found). Even if it were produced, and transferred to the cell surface it would not bind HIV-1 because it lacks the section to which the virus binds since this occurs after the stop codon.
So, without the CCR5 protein on the surface, the HIV virus is unable to enter the cell, and thus unable to infect the person carrying the mutation. In people who are heterozygous for the wild type and Δ32 variants, they merely have fewer CCR5 receptors on the cell surface and are approximately 25% less likely to catch HIV than wild type homozygotes. Δ32 homozygotes are, while not quite totally immune (because it is just possible for the virus to enter via interaction with CXCR4) they are about a thousand times less likely to catch the disease.
(Oh, and BTW, whether the CCR5 Δ32 variant is actually a beneficial mutation depends on context because while it protects against AIDS, it makes the carrier more susceptible to West Nile Virus)
My understanding is that there is not even a clear definition of what Aids actually is, so I think to say that one mutation can make someone resistant to something we can't define seems a little unclear.
This is quite wrong. AIDS is well understood in terms of what it is, and what causes it. In fact, compared to most diseases, it is extremely well studied.
Edited by Mr Jack, : + bit about West Nile Virus
Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-10-2010 9:06 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Omnivorous, posted 09-10-2010 10:51 AM Dr Jack has replied
 Message 116 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-10-2010 11:44 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 114 of 166 (580623)
09-10-2010 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Omnivorous
09-10-2010 10:51 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Omnivorous writes:
I've had West Nile, subjectively experienced as a mild flu.
While West Nile is typically harmless, or only produces mild symptoms, it can also cause fatal encephalitis, so it's not as harmless as all that.
Whether selected for by the bubonic plagues or by multiple viral outbreaks, the variant sounds like a winner.
Has there been any new work on clarifying the selective pressure which ramped up the variant in European populations?
I'm personally sceptical that the variant is as completely harmless as thought because organisms don't usually carry around functional but pointless genes. However, if the Δ32 variant is as harmless as currently suspected, I'd point out that the incidence rate is within that explicable simply by genetic drift and other neutral factors. Especially as the trait is largely recessive.
I don't know specifically of any work done in this area, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Omnivorous, posted 09-10-2010 10:51 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 123 of 166 (580637)
09-10-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Bolder-dash
09-10-2010 11:44 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
I don't think they are lying; I think they are wrong - as do the vast majority of the scientists with working knowledge of the area.
You'll note that like many other scientists with what could kindly be described as unconventional views she's not a specialist in the area she's holding forth her views on - she's a PhD in Mathematics, not biology, not epidemiology, not viriology, not medicine, etc., etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-10-2010 11:44 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 153 of 166 (581037)
09-13-2010 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by ICdesign
09-12-2010 7:57 PM


Re: Cause of mutation?
I believe a mutation can modify a function but not create an entirely new function.
We agree with you. That's exactly how mainstream evolutionary theory describes matters. New features, almost without exception, are simply modifications of old features. Often after duplication freed up one copy for modification.
A NEW function and a MODIFIED function are two entirely different classifications so let me clarify.
This is where you are wrong. Functions are not discrete entities. Take a feather for example. A feather is a modified scale (we know this because of the proteins involved in its formation, the proteins involved in its structure, homologies with other organisms, and the developmental processes through which it goes). A scale's primary function is protection. Simple feathers, similar to those found today on many birds, and in the fossil record on many dinosaurs, are a small modification of a scale. A small shift in the timing of various development signals causes the production of a small branched structure. These "downy" feathers provide insulation.
A few further small modifications turn these downy feathers into stiffer, straight structures similar to those that appear to be present on pre-avian running dinosaurs. These were probably primarily used for signalling, but may have also had an aerodynamic role. And then, finally, you have the true flight feathers, capable of directing the flow of air, and providing a light, stiff-but-flexible, large flight area. A new function, but no abrupt change, just modification of existing function.
The same with the wing bones themselves (in bats, birds and pterosaurs, in fact); no new bones, no new muscle groups, just modification of the proportions of existing bones leading, eventually, to a new function.
Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ICdesign, posted 09-12-2010 7:57 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ICdesign, posted 09-13-2010 7:26 AM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 160 by barbara, posted 09-15-2010 7:10 PM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 162 by barbara, posted 09-20-2010 1:35 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 163 of 166 (582154)
09-20-2010 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by barbara
09-20-2010 1:35 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Is there a retrovirus mutation or mutation that indicates the point when the genes started forming feathers and what else does those genes do in the host?
Huh? What do retroviruses have to do with this?
There are a great many genes involved in feather formation, including many regulatory genes. It is rare for regulatory genes to be uniquely involved in any particular feature so it is likely that many of the genes involved are active elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by barbara, posted 09-20-2010 1:35 AM barbara has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024