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Author Topic:   Is there any proof of beneficial mutations?
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 121 of 166 (580634)
09-10-2010 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Bolder-dash
09-10-2010 12:06 PM


Off Topic AIDs discussion
I am saying that there are people whose job it is to study these diseases who say that the links between Aids and HIV are not so simply defined
Well so far you have given one mathematician who did a PhD, had a handful of publications and then apparently gave up a career in science for a career in selling books to AIDs Denialists rethinkers.
I find it to be imprecise and misleading when Wounded King or Mr. Jack make these kind of blanket statements that the disease is perfectly understood.
Since we are talking about being misleading maybe you can show where either Mr. Jack or myself said that it was perfectly understood?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-10-2010 12:06 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-10-2010 12:34 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 122 of 166 (580636)
09-10-2010 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Wounded King
09-10-2010 12:23 PM


Re: Off Topic AIDs discussion
Well so far you have given one mathematician who did a PhD,...
Is it a numbers game? if it is then I guess I am ahead one to zero.
Instead of making some off the cuff comment immediately attempting to discredit someone you know nothing about, wouldn't it be a more beneficial use of your debate strategy time to simply refute the things that she said that you disagree with and why, instead of just guessing that she must be an unworthy authority? What's your authority?
Bolder-Dash - 1
Woundedking-0
Also, its a bit late in the game to call this off topic, when others have used the Aids situation to comment on beneficial mutations and thus the entire status of Aids disease becomes part of that conversation, to question the conclusions drawn from its evidence.
Bolder-dash-2
Woundedking-0

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Wounded King, posted 09-10-2010 12:23 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Admin, posted 09-10-2010 12:41 PM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 125 by Wounded King, posted 09-10-2010 12:45 PM Bolder-dash has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 123 of 166 (580637)
09-10-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Bolder-dash
09-10-2010 11:44 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
I don't think they are lying; I think they are wrong - as do the vast majority of the scientists with working knowledge of the area.
You'll note that like many other scientists with what could kindly be described as unconventional views she's not a specialist in the area she's holding forth her views on - she's a PhD in Mathematics, not biology, not epidemiology, not viriology, not medicine, etc., etc.

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 124 of 166 (580639)
09-10-2010 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Bolder-dash
09-10-2010 12:34 PM


Re: Off Topic AIDs discussion
Hi Bolder-dash,
If you'd like to discuss the role of beneficial mutations regarding the AIDS virus, then that is on-topic.
If you'd like to discuss the current state of knowledge about the AIDS virus and its relationship to HIV, then that is not on-topic, but you can propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics if you can find some way to tie it in to the creation/evolution debate.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-10-2010 12:34 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 125 of 166 (580640)
09-10-2010 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Bolder-dash
09-10-2010 12:34 PM


Re: Off Topic AIDs discussion
I think your score is a little off, how about the 4 peer reviewed papers from the scientific literature I already cited?
Why don't you respond to those before I have to respond to a whole slew of assertions from the first aids denialist you glommed onto from google.
I know that creationists/IDists prefer argument by cut and paste but still.
As to being off topic, I don't see where your quote said anything about the evolution of resistance. Is this you starting Minemooseus topic drift game early? You sly dog.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-10-2010 12:34 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-10-2010 12:56 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 126 of 166 (580642)
09-10-2010 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Bolder-dash
09-10-2010 9:06 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Hi bolder-dash
Do you know specifically what does the mutation that makes one immune to Aids do?
I can only repeat what I have read online, better educated people than I can tell you far more, but with the mutation (probably one of many, but the best known is indeed the one that Wounded king Message 110 and Mr Jack Message 112 are talking about.
Their explanations are far better than I could do.
My understanding is that there is not even a clear definition of what Aids actually is, so I think to say that one mutation can make someone resistant to something we can't define seems a little unclear.
your understanding is wrong. That's the kindest thing I can say about it.
...and oh dear, I see you've abandoned all reason and started the incoherent gish galloping. Look, AIDS denialism is about as useful and correct as "climate skepticism", otherwise known as "climate change denialism". It is generally a mass of quote mines and ignorance by people who don't know what they're talking about and really should know better.
If you're trying to keep some idiotic score with a gish galloping quote mined denialist copy-pasta then you have already lost.
Edited by greyseal, : fixed msg to mid.

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Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 127 of 166 (580643)
09-10-2010 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Wounded King
09-10-2010 12:45 PM


Re: Off Topic AIDs discussion
Edited by Admin, : Hide off-topic content.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Wounded King, posted 09-10-2010 12:45 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 128 of 166 (580645)
09-10-2010 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Admin
09-10-2010 12:41 PM


Oh, sorry I didn't see that.
Got it.

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greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 129 of 166 (580646)
09-10-2010 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Omnivorous
09-10-2010 10:10 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Hi Omnivorous,
I've been googling the subject for the past hour as well.
Yeah, I had to google it as well - I remembered it but did not know the facts.
You'll find I am not averse to online research; it was not your numbers but your syntax I was unsure of, and it seemed more civil to ask than to research and assert.
It's ok, I wasn't quite sure what you meant - whether you were wondering if the known mutation confers immunity to multiple strains of AIDS or whether the numbers I quoted were correct (which were off the top of my head, I think I got them about right, though it could be the African numbers are an order of magnitude lower). I blame it on the cold I currently have
It's a fascinating subject: your numbers hold up. The resistance could also partially explain the greater impact of HIV on the African-American community
Indeed, that's exactly what the information present appears to display - Africa is beyond the worst-case scenario because of the lack of immunity in the general population, compounded by ignorance and fear, superstition and quite frankly the meddling of the catholic church and islamic "scholars" who say that using a condom is "bad".

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 Message 111 by Omnivorous, posted 09-10-2010 10:10 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 130 of 166 (580761)
09-11-2010 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by dennis780
09-09-2010 11:57 PM


Re: Cause of mutation?
You never hear people argue gravity.
I guess you've never heard the theory of "intelligent falling", then?
And actually people do argue gravity, for instance:
Conservapedia:Conservapedian relativity - RationalWiki
quote:
The sysops at Conservapedia are concerned about a link between scientific relativity (special and general relativity) and moral relativism, even though the concepts are utterly unrelated and have nothing in common other than the word "relativity".
Based on that comically misguided premise, and perhaps their mistrust of science in general (derived from their opposition to the biological theory of evolution), they attempt to denigrate the science of relativity as part of their anti-moral relativism agenda. As a result, the relativity-related articles at Conservapedia are riddled with incorrect interpretations, distortions of fact, out-of-context quotes from scientists and scientific journals, and elementary errors.
Some of the mistakes may be due to basic misunderstanding of the physics involved, but attempts to correct them have been met with admonishments, reversions and blockings from the administrators, suggesting wilful ignorance in their misrepresentation of relativity.
Like others have said, the fact that there is a "dispute" here doesn't do anything to buttress the underlying claims of evolution defenders attackers. I mean you can find people who believe the Moon landings are all hoaxes or that 9/11 was an inside job.
Among informed experts, however, there's just no dispute about the fundamental accuracy of the theory of evolution and its explanation for the history and diversity of life on Earth. For good reason: there's more evidence for every aspect of evolution than for any other scientific theory, any finding of any court of law, or any medical diagnosis ever made by a doctor.
If evolution were 100% true, then there would not be HUNDREDS of books published to the contrary, and this forum would be dead fuckin quiet.
It is 100% true, but it contradicts cherished religious dogma, so people like you have a vested interest in "challenging" it on entirely spurious grounds. If your notions of creationism are true they'll be true because of the evidence that supports them. But that evidence doesn't include the mere fact that you're making the argument. That's circular reasoning.
Edited by crashfrog, : Corrected opposite word choice.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Wounded King, posted 09-11-2010 4:25 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 133 by ICdesign, posted 09-11-2010 12:53 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 134 by ICdesign, posted 09-11-2010 7:21 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 135 by ICdesign, posted 09-12-2010 9:11 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 131 of 166 (580780)
09-11-2010 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by crashfrog
09-11-2010 12:28 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Like others have said, the fact that there is a "dispute" here doesn't do anything to buttress the underlying claims of evolution defenders.
I wouldn't think so since buttressing a claim would be to support it, perhaps the seige metaphor you were looking for was 'undermine'.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2010 12:28 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2010 12:14 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 132 of 166 (580804)
09-11-2010 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Wounded King
09-11-2010 4:25 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Actually the typo is "defenders" instead of "attackers." Oops, editing message for clarity.

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ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 133 of 166 (580810)
09-11-2010 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by crashfrog
09-11-2010 12:28 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Edited by Admin, : Hide content-free text. Please, no replies.

This message is a reply to:
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ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 134 of 166 (580860)
09-11-2010 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by crashfrog
09-11-2010 12:28 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
ICDEISGN: The topic is about beneficial mutations, not the development of new functions. You stopped participating in the thread where new functions were the topic. Please return to that thread if you want to discuss new functions.
Everyone else: Please, no replies to this message.
--Admin
Crashfrog writes:
there's more evidence for every aspect of evolution than for any other scientific theory, any finding of any court of law, or any medical diagnosis ever made by a doctor.
Then Crashfrog turns right around and writes:
If your notions... are true they'll be true because of the evidence that supports them. But that evidence doesn't include the mere fact that you're making the argument. That's circular reasoning.
So lets see your evidence please.
You said "every" aspect of evolution so I'll make it easy on you and ask for just one;
Lets see the evidence that rm/ns is capable of producing a useful NEW function!
...lets see the mountain of evidence that surpasses "any finding of any court of law, or any medical diagnosis ever made by a doctor"
Edited by ICDESIGN, : No reason given.
Edited by Admin, : Add moderator comment.

This message is a reply to:
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ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 135 of 166 (580896)
09-12-2010 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by crashfrog
09-11-2010 12:28 AM


Re: Cause of mutation?
Crashfrog writes:
there's more evidence for every aspect of evolution than for any other scientific theory, any finding of any court of law, or any medical diagnosis ever made by a doctor.
What an outrageous exaggeration!!!
Then Crashfrog turns right around and says:
If your notions of creationism are true they'll be true because of the evidence that supports them. But that evidence doesn't include the mere fact that you're making the argument. That's circular reasoning.
Lets see the mountain of evidence for beneficial mutations that surpasses "any finding of any court of law, or any medical diagnosis ever made by a doctor"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2010 12:28 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by greyseal, posted 09-12-2010 12:22 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 139 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2010 12:40 PM ICdesign has replied

  
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