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Author Topic:   why is the atheist obsessed with the Bible
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 76 of 112 (585326)
10-07-2010 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
10-06-2010 5:48 PM


You're confusing the word of jaywill with the word of God.

Demonstrate with quotations please.

Where do you see this confusing ? Take the exact post you are refering to above.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 10-06-2010 5:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 10-07-2010 3:04 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 94 by dwise1, posted 10-07-2010 9:44 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 77 of 112 (585327)
10-07-2010 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by hooah212002
10-06-2010 6:14 PM


Re:
None of that is positive because at the heart of it all is you think you are born a piece of shit and need to ask your invisible friend to make you happy.

1.) We're created in the image of God. That makes us quite precious.

2.) Though created in the image of God man fell into rebellion and sin against God.

This might be compared to a fine radio that was discarded in the mud. It no longer plays anything but ugly static. Its design though is quite precious.

So you are wrong in my evaluation of man's worth. And you nicely demonstrate the danger of assuming that one post embraces the full scope of Christian theology.

But with those eager to misunderstand, this is an assumption they are quick to make - "Quick. Find something to choke on."

Lastly, God became a man. This speaks of the worth of man to God.


You can go ahead and be a piece of shit, I'll make myself happy. No invisible homies necessary.

Probably your estimation of man is far far lower than mine. Your homie Darwin probably filled your little head with man is no more than an ape with the hair shaved off.

So I'll take the Bible's estimation of the worth of humanity over yours any day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by hooah212002, posted 10-06-2010 6:14 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Rahvin, posted 10-07-2010 2:49 PM jaywill has responded
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 78 of 112 (585333)
10-07-2010 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jaywill
10-07-2010 2:26 PM


Atheists value human life just as much as anyone else.
Probably your estimation of man is far far lower than mine. Your homie Darwin probably filled your little head with man is no more that a ape with the hair shaved off.

So I'll take the Bible's estimation of the worth of humanity over yours any day.

How precisely does that follow? Supposedly your magic sky-man created humanity out of dust, so we're really all just walking, talking pieces of dirt. Yet that doesn't stop you or your fictional deity from valuing humanity (of course, your god supposedly valued humanity so much that he killed every last one of us except for a single family in a giant global flood - somewhat contradictory to commit genocide and then express valuation of humanity, rather like Hitler saying he cares about all the Jews).

Why, then, should the fact that homo sapiens are in fact apes mean that we are "worth" any less than how much you value us?

As an Atheist, my estimation of the value of human life does not come from any fairy tale book and is completely independent of our origins; it makes no difference if we are some cosmic science project, the magically animated dust-bunnies of Genesis, or apes. I value human life because we are self-aware, thinking and feeling individuals. I think that every single human life is absolutely precious, and that any time that anyone dies or suffers it is sad. I don't need some fictional father figure to care about me for me to care about everyone else - I want you, me, and everyone else in the world to be free from hunger, pain, and disease. I want you, me, and everyone else in the world to live happy, fulfilling lives. I don't think that anything in the world is more important than human well-being; that regardless of notions of fairness and the responsibility of risk, I don't want to see my neighbor be made homeless because he made a bad business decision, and I'm willing to pay higher taxes to ensure that society helps him get back on his feet. I oppose the death penalty because it's sad that any human being should have to die, and it's reprehensible that we could possibly ever execute an innocent person, and I'd rather show mercy to a hundred thousand murderers than make one innocent person die. I oppose massive military budgets because I know that the money we spend on weapons for killing could instead be spent on food and infrastructure to save millions of lives and improve the standard of living of countless more.

quote:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Understanding that human beings are logically classified as apes by any modern biological means of classification in no way prevents one from valuing human life. I don't need a deity to tell me how much your life or mine is worth; my own perfectly natural sense of empathy does that just fine.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 2:26 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 4:34 PM Rahvin has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 79 of 112 (585337)
10-07-2010 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jaywill
10-07-2010 2:17 PM


jaywill writes:

ringo writes:

You're confusing the word of jaywill with the word of God.


Demonstrate with quotations please.

I did quote Message 56:
quote:
Some people will be turned away from God because of the word of God.
and I replied that some people will be turned away from God because of the word of jaywill. You repeatedly mistake your own (mis)interpretaion of the Bible for the "word of God". The real word of God (if He exists) is written in the universe and in people's hearts. You do your best to subvert that but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

jaywill writes:

Where do you see this confusing ?


I didn't say I find it confusing. I said that you're confused.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed capitalization.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 2:17 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 3:47 PM ringo has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 80 of 112 (585339)
10-07-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
10-06-2010 6:39 PM


Re:
I'm sorry but the Christianity you describe and try to market seems to be little more than a worthless shell, a cheap and pitiful excuse of a religion designed only to be easy to market.

Did you notice I never mention the word Christianity? You guys do. I mention Christ a lot.

The little that I did describe was about being transformed into the image of Christ. The easy market Christianity is not about transformation but about going to a happy place, Heaven.

The more superfiscial view is that a sinner is forgiven to be taken to a happy place. And often the emphasis is that that occurs when you die. This makes God a God of death more than of life.

And transformation is usually neglected. And I quoted to you Athanasius's insight that God became man so that man might become God.

If you think that is easy marketing Christianity, I suggest you see what kind of look you get when you tell some Fundamentalist that you heard - God became man so that man might become God.

Get back to me and tell me what he or she said in response.


There is NOTHING in what you said that talks about being a Christian, "accept Jesus" has almost nothing to do with that.

Nothing ? You missed it. So smart you are and so blind.

"It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ who lives in me."

That's it right there. Living Christ. Living through Christ. Letting Christ live in and through you. Living in union with Christ.

Don't look now, but that is what being a Christian is all about.


Salvation as you present it is just a mockery. And Jesus did not die for our sins, he lived to teach us how to be Human.

Sigh.

Jar, get a grip for a moment. Does that fact that Jesus died for our sins mean that He did NOT come also to teach us to be Human ?

Why the false dichotomy? Why the EITHER / OR ?

Here' how Jesus said to be Human - (one place at least)

"As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

Jesus lived by assimilating, digesting, internalizing all that His Father was. Now He has been prepared so that if we do the same with Jesus, we also will live because of Him.

The obstacle to man coming into communion with God is SIN.

Your sins make the separation. You sins make the barrier. God is ONE for whom a more righteous one can not be imagined.

For us to come forward to touch God He has to deal with the obstacle of our sins. Our sins are real guilt. The actual and real guilt of our sins must be dealt with by Christ's redemption.

So on the way for us to live normal high humanity God must deal first with the insulation between us and Himself. And that insulation, that obstacle is dealt with by Christ's redemptive death on the cross.


The Sacrifice is NOT Jesus death, it is the fact of his life.

This passage speaks of the living Christ being in a form in which He can be imparted into millions of people all over the globe in different times:

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 cor. 15:45)

Christ as a life giving Spirit can give the divine ZOE life of God into man's being. Life giving Spirit really means God Giving Spirit or Christ Giving Spirit.

He gives His life to us by being in the form of life giving Spirit.

Yet He also did sacrifice His life for us. And this can be seen in Paul's word - " ... the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (See Gal. 2:20)

The giving Himself UP for Paul means His giving Himself up to His redemptive death on the torturing cross. He gave Himself up and sacrificed Himself.


When Jesus said to take up Lacrosse, he was not just talking about the sport.

I like humor just as much as the next guy. This is frivolous.


The cross is what we are commanded to do. We are charged to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, educate the children, comfort the sorrowful, protect the innocent and forgive those who are not so innocent.

Yes, the Christian is taught to do these things.

But more accurately he is taught that Jesus is alive and available. And we are to let Jesus LIVE AGAIN, only this time from within us.

"Abide in me and I in you. "

This is a command coupled with a promise. "Abide in Me AND I in you".

The command is that we are to get into realm, the sphere of the living Jesus. The promise is that He in turn with saturate us and live in us.

He is emphatic that without abiding in Him as an available and living Lord, we can do nothing. Right here:

"Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me."

The life juice of the vine must flow into the branches that are connected to the vine.

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman." (John 15:1)

"I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; fpr apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

What the branches produce comes out of the flowing of the life from the vine into the branches. Without abiding in the True Vine we can do NOTHING.

We may think we can do a lot of things apart from Christ. In the end, before God it will all account as NOTHING. Because apart from abiding in Christ we can do nothing for God's eternal kingdom.

Now, nowhere in the chapter does Jesus tell the disciples HOW to abide in Him. Listen.

The secret to HOW to abide in Christ is the see the revelation that the saved sinner is indeed IN Him. He does not need to fight to get into Him. He does not need to struggle to get into Him. He must simply SEE that he, as a forgiven sinner, is a BRANCH in the true Vine of Jesus Christ.

Once you receive Christ as Lord and Savior you can see the revelation that you are already IN Him. We linger and remain in that vision and His life flows to us and is expressed out from us.


Christianity is not about salvation, not about a joyful life, not about relief but about charge, about commitment, about fidelity, about compassion, about doing.

Okay. And it is about WHO is the source of that living. It is not about the source in a sentimental way "now all you people go home and be good people. Be like Jesus."

No. It is about the resurrected Christ living in His people and Himself being the Source and the vitality of that living - [b]"it is not longer I who live but it is Christ who lives in me."


What you market is an easy sell, I can see that, but it is NOT the message I get from reading the Bible.

I do not agree. But I am glad you are reading the Bible.

At the very end of the Bible you have the climax. You have the final goal. At the end of the Bible you have the ultimate consummation of all of God's operation throughout history.

What do you have at the end ? What is the final outcome of all of God's salvation work? It is a "city". It is a city called "New Jerusalem" .

This city is total mingling and organic union of God and man. This city is also called the temple of God. It is a living place where God lives. She means that God lives in man and man lives in God.

"Abide in Me and I in you" of John 15 reaches its final consummation in Revelation 21 and 22. That is the mutual organic joining of God and man. In short the mass production of sons of God.

If there is a greater meaning of human life, I don't know what it is.

It is more meaningful to God WHO is in you as the Source of your life then the outward things you do. He only cares for His Son. He only wants His Son. He has fired everyone and replaced them all with His Son.

But this Son, with whom God is solely pleased, can be dispensed into man. This Son, Who alone pleases the Father, can be imparted and distributed into man.

www.godseconomy.org

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 10-06-2010 6:39 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 10-07-2010 3:28 PM jaywill has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 81 of 112 (585341)
10-07-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jaywill
10-07-2010 2:26 PM


Re:
This might be compared to a fine radio that was discarded in the mud. It no longer plays anything but ugly static. Its design though is quite precious.

Need I say more? You just compared man to something that was thrown in a mud puddle.

And you nicely demonstrate the danger of assuming that one post embraces the full scope of Christian theology.

One post? Full scope of christian theology?

Ahem....I was referring to you, jaywill. YOU and ALL OF YOUR POSTS refer to yourself and a self loathing piece of trash who needs to ask for some sort of forgiveness for shit you don't even do. Your interpretation of a book written by sheepherders has you disillusioned into thinking you are a piece of garbage.

Excuse me if I find that a bit disgusting. Why would anyone want to join a club that makes them think they are trash without an invisible friend?

Your homie Darwin probably filled your little head with man is no more that a ape with the hair shaved off.

What exactly is that even supposed to mean? Charles Darwin is nothing more than a scientist who proposed a theory that has withstood the test of time. He is not held on high like your ego-maniacal thug of a deity.

So I'll take the Bible's estimation of the worth of humanity over yours any day.

Like Rahvin said, the value of a human life according to the bible is for shit. Your god couldn't give two shits from a donkeys ass about human life.

So, I'll say it again: you can go ahead and see yourself as a putrid ball of slime looking for affection from your invisible friend. I'll be fine not feeling sorry for myself for shit that happened in a mythical fairy tale book.


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 2:26 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 82 of 112 (585342)
10-07-2010 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jaywill
10-07-2010 3:12 PM


Re:
Like I said, nothing more than an empty shell and platitudes.

What you market is an easy sell, I can see that, but it is NOT the message I get from reading the Bible.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 3:12 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 3:52 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 83 of 112 (585344)
10-07-2010 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
10-07-2010 3:04 PM


I did quote Message 56:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people will be turned away from God because of the word of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still stand by that because that is what the word of God itself claims.


and I replied that some people will be turned away from God because of the word of jaywill.

Some people may be turned away from the Lord Jesus because of my immaturity.

Granted. Maybe my self come through. Maybe I make a mistake in teaching.

I said it before. I'll repeat it. I do not think all my interpretation of the scripture are infallible.

Now you can wait for a PERFECT Christian to come along. You can wait until some Christ loving Christian who never makes any mistakes and never displays any spiritual immaturity comes along. Go ahead.

But I came to Jesus after a long line of imperfect lovers of Jesus told me this and that. I don't think any of them were PERFECT.

Or you can concentrate of Jesus Himself.

But I will stand one day before my Lord. And if I have turned away someone from God because of ME in an ungodly way, I'll answer to the Master for that.

Fortunately, there is a remedy for my mistakes. But I will withhold that for now.

Savor a little bit longer that I am not the perfect messenger. But here is what concerns me. The day may come when God will say -

"Mr. Unbeliever, I sent to you a educated person and you didn't listen. You thought, She's too filled with books.

I sent to you a simplistic person less educated person, and you didn't listen. You thought. He has no learning. What could he know.

I sent to you an old person, and you thought, He's too old fashion!

Then after awhile sent to you a young person, and you said, He's too young. What does he know?

I sent serious person, And you thought, He's tooooo religious!

Then I sent to you a light hearted person. You said, He doesn't take this matter seriously enough. I can't listen to him about Jesus.

Whatever you complained about, I sent you what you thought you should hear the message of salvation from. And you always had an excuse.

Now your time is up. "

Ringo, DON"T WAIT FOR THE PERFECT CHRISTIAN TO COME ALONG.

If I'm turning you away from Jesus. This will be the last time I will talk to you. If that will help. I'll get out of your way.

But Ringo, Don't wait for the perfect messenger. There is only one who is perfect. That is Jesus Himself.


You repeatedly mistake your own (mis)interpretaion of the Bible for the "word of God". The real word of God (if He exists) is written in the universe and in people's hearts. You do your best to subvert that but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

See. You even get the last word.


jaywill writes:
Where do you see this confusing ?

I didn't say I find it confusing. I said that you're confused.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 10-07-2010 3:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 10-07-2010 6:30 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 84 of 112 (585346)
10-07-2010 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
10-07-2010 3:28 PM


Re:
What you market is an easy sell, I can see that, but it is NOT the message I get from reading the Bible.

Okay.

I think I'll leave this thread now.
thanks for the conversation.

I usually hang around at the Bible Study Room.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 10-07-2010 3:28 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 85 of 112 (585356)
10-07-2010 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Rahvin
10-07-2010 2:49 PM


Re: Atheists value human life just as much as anyone else.
How precisely does that follow? Supposedly your magic sky-man created humanity out of dust, so we're really all just walking, talking pieces of dirt.

The revelation states that man is far more than just the physical.

You know, the modern thought is that the universe is dying out. In the mean time we are specs on a second rate planet by accident. Either the super nova of our sun will gobble us up the ashes of the universe will expand into the coldness of infinite space.

Man is absurd. There is no objective meaning to human life for the atheist. Any meaning is illusionary. Sure, you could say "The purpsoe of life is to hit more home runs then Hank Aaron."

But there is no objective meaning. So I think the Bible's proclamation of man made in the image of God and for God is more meaningful.

I mean He seems to want you for eternity - "That whosoever believes into Him might not perish but have eternal life"


Yet that doesn't stop you or your fictional deity from valuing humanity (of course, your god supposedly valued humanity so much that he killed every last one of us except for a single family in a giant global flood - somewhat contradictory to commit genocide and then express valuation of humanity, rather like Hitler saying he cares about all the Jews).

In Bible there is a very WIDE scope of recorded dealings of God with sinners. Noah's flood is not the end of the book.

In this wide scope, I see that on one extreme you have the Flood of Noah. On the other side you have God showing mercy to an entire nations even when God's prophet was reluctant for them to have a chance to repent.

The book of Jonah is in the same Bible. And its theme is God's RELUCTANCE to have to judge a nation. So I balance my reading of the Noah flood with the book of Jonah.

I very much want to explore the entire spectrum of God's ways.

I think it is God's responsibility to show us all the possible outcomes along this wide spectrum. And the extreme severe dealings have to be included with the merciful dealings.

Do you know who lived the longest in the bible? His name was Methusaleh. He lived 960 plus years.

Do you know what his name means ? It means something like "When he dies it will come". Many teachers believe that the "it" that is to come refers to the flood of Noah.

So, the longevity of Methusaleh "when he dies it will come" suggests that God prolonged the time as much as His righteousness would allow Him to do so. Judgement is His "strange work".

But He is righteous. God is one for whom a more righteous one cannot be imagined.

And it is His responsibility to ALSO show us that judgment WILL not be denied when it must come for His rigthteous being's sake.

Now, we see in the story of Noah, God's salvation too. We see a new beginning. We see a preservation not only of people for a new beginning but of the environment also. We see His plan of salvation for man and for animals.

And He prolonged the time as long as He possibly could, When the oldest living human being FINALLY expired God had, by His own righteous being, bring in judgment.

But He also saved 8 people for a new beginning.

So, I guess with me, I just have to take into account the fuller scope of ALL that the Bible tells me.


Why, then, should the fact that homo sapiens are in fact apes mean that we are "worth" any less than how much you value us?

Apes are cool. So are dolphins and so are chimps and ants. But they are not as high as human beings. So I can say "Apes are wonderful. Bless their hearts. BUT, human beings are better."

And Jesus said that not a sparrow falls to the ground without His Father. But we are of more value then the sparrows. So Jesus also taught that as good as animals were, man meant MORE to God then they.

God became a man. So man must be important. He did not become a gerbil or a hedgehog. The Word did not become an gorilla. But the Word became flesh - Humanity. So the worth of man is seen in the fact that the incarnation of God was to a man rather than a beast.

But beasts are cool too. I use to have a pet king snake. I've had cats and dogs and birds and mice. So I like animals.

But man is unique because he has a spirit to contact God. And man is made to live in God and have God live in him.


As an Atheist, my estimation of the value of human life does not come from any fairy tale book and is completely independent of our origins; it makes no difference if we are some cosmic science project, the magically animated dust-bunnies of Genesis, or apes. I value human life because we are self-aware, thinking and feeling individuals. I think that every single human life is absolutely precious, and that any time that anyone dies or suffers it is sad. I don't need some fictional father figure to care about me for me to care about everyone else - I want you, me, and everyone else in the world to be free from hunger, pain, and disease. I want you, me, and everyone else in the world to live happy, fulfilling lives. I don't think that anything in the world is more important than human well-being; that regardless of notions of fairness and the responsibility of risk, I don't want to see my neighbor be made homeless because he made a bad business decision, and I'm willing to pay higher taxes to ensure that society helps him get back on his feet. I oppose the death penalty because it's sad that any human being should have to die, and it's reprehensible that we could possibly ever execute an innocent person, and I'd rather show mercy to a hundred thousand murderers than make one innocent person die. I oppose massive military budgets because I know that the money we spend on weapons for killing could instead be spent on food and infrastructure to save millions of lives and improve the standard of living of countless more.

The problem here is that so much of your sentiment is probably based on Judeo/Christian ethics to begin with.

Someone said they saw on a train a little child sitting on the lap of a parent and trying to smack the parent in the face. Without the child sitting on the parent's lap it would not be able to reach the face of the parent to slap it.

So when I hear a lot of athiests try to scold God it seems that they do so from the vantage point of having ingested so much Judeo/ Christian ethical philosophy to begin with.

How much of your sentiment about the worth of man, the good works of humanitarian activity is inspired perhaps subconsciously, by something in the Bible ?

You sit there and scold God and believers in God about the worth of people, freedom from hunger, good deeds, liberation, the sparring of the innocent, justice, etc.

So while you are sitting there wagging your finger in God's face, your positioned on the lap of a lot of Judeo/ Christian morality that is at the foundation of this Western culture.

In order to get close to God to give Him a good slap you have to be positioned on a lot of ethics and morality you derived from Judeo / Christian worldview.

You didn't derive all that ethical thought from Stone Henge or the Egyptian Ra.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Rahvin, posted 10-07-2010 2:49 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 86 of 112 (585371)
10-07-2010 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jaywill
10-07-2010 4:34 PM


Re: Atheists value human life just as much as anyone else.
How precisely does that follow? Supposedly your magic sky-man created humanity out of dust, so we're really all just walking, talking pieces of dirt.

The revelation states that man is far more than just the physical.

So what? Why does man being only physical or more than just physical mean that we should value human life more or less?

Although if you add the existence of an immortal soul, I'd suggest that such a thing devalues human life - who cares if you're poor or suffering now for your temporal life, if you get perfect heaven forever afterwards? If this life is all you get, then there's a much greater moral imperative to help one's fellow man.

You know, the modern thought is that the universe is dying out. In the mean time we are specs on a second rate planet by accident. Either the super nova of our sun will gobble us up the ashes of the universe will expand into the coldness of infinite space.

Man is absurd. There is no objective meaning to human life for the atheist. Any meaning is illusionary. Sure, you could say "The purpsoe of life is to hit more home runs then Hank Aaron."

But there is no objective meaning. So I think the Bible's proclamation of man made in the image of God and for God is more meaningful.

I mean He seems to want you for eternity - "That whosoever believes into Him might not perish but have eternal life"

Why would an objective meaning (an oxymoron; all meaning is subjective, that's what the word, well, means.) to human life be of greater value than a subjective meaning? I value my own life; my natural sense of empathy and desire to interact with other people in a society means that I apply that value onto others as well.

Yet that doesn't stop you or your fictional deity from valuing humanity (of course, your god supposedly valued humanity so much that he killed every last one of us except for a single family in a giant global flood - somewhat contradictory to commit genocide and then express valuation of humanity, rather like Hitler saying he cares about all the Jews).

In Bible there is a very WIDE scope of recorded dealings of God with sinners. Noah's flood is not the end of the book.

Indeed. If I were to rant against each specific instance of your god valuing human life as less worthy than you or I might treat a bit of rancid meat, I;d need more than a single post.

In this wide scope, I see that on one extreme you have the Flood of Noah. On the other side you have God showing mercy to an entire nations even when God's prophet was reluctant for them to have a chance to repent.

...if I don't commit genocide, does that mean I'm being "merciful?" Should you thank me right now for mercifully not burning you alive?

The book of Jonah is in the same Bible. And its theme is God's RELUCTANCE to have to judge a nation. So I balance my reading of the Noah flood with the book of Jonah.

...killing every person in the world minus a few individuals is balanced by reluctance to kill one city?

Really?

I very much want to explore the entire spectrum of God's ways.

I think it is God's responsibility to show us all the possible outcomes along this wide spectrum. And the extreme severe dealings have to be included with the merciful dealings.

Do you know who lived the longest in the bible? His name was Methusaleh. He lived 960 plus years.

Do you know what his name means ? It means something like "When he dies it will come". Many teachers believe that the "it" that is to come refers to the flood of Noah.

So, the longevity of Methusaleh "when he dies it will come" suggests that God prolonged the time as much as His righteousness would allow Him to do so. Judgement is His "strange work".

But He is righteous. God is one for whom a more righteous one cannot be imagined.

And it is His responsibility to ALSO show us that judgment WILL not be denied when it must come for His rigthteous being's sake.

Now, we see in the story of Noah, God's salvation too. We see a new beginning. We see a preservation not only of people for a new beginning but of the environment also. We see His plan of salvation for man and for animals.

And He prolonged the time as long as He possibly could, When the oldest living human being FINALLY expired God had, by His own righteous being, bring in judgment.

But He also saved 8 people for a new beginning.

So, I guess with me, I just have to take into account the fuller scope of ALL that the Bible tells me.

You've said a lot of words that don't even suggest to me that your deity values human life (with the exception of certain individuals that he likes, typically the ones who kiss his imaginary ass the most, which is quite different from valuing human life in general), let alone why, if he did, that would make human life more valuable than I consider it to be.

I've already stated that I think human life is the most precious thing in the Universe (I'd actually expand that to sentient life, but that's a bit outside the scope here). Proving the morality or immorality of your deity is not the point of this discussion - it's whether the theistic view of humanity as "more than just physical" as you stated earlier conveys greater value than purely physical, evolved human beings. You haven't even tried to do that - you simply reacted defensively for your sky-fairy and let yourself be sidetracked.

Why, then, should the fact that homo sapiens are in fact apes mean that we are "worth" any less than how much you value us?

Apes are cool. So are dolphins and so are chimps and ants. But they are not as high as human beings. So I can say "Apes are wonderful. Bless their hearts. BUT, human beings are better."

...Human beings are apes. There is no way to biologically separate human beings from apes. You might as well say that "Mammals are great. But humans are better." We are mammals. We are apes.

That said, I think you and I agree that human beings are more valuable than other apes (if you can accept facts just for the sake of the argument; we both value human beings as greater than, say, a gorilla).

And Jesus said that not a sparrow falls to the ground without His Father. But we are of more value then the sparrows. So Jesus also taught that as good as animals were, man meant MORE to God then they.

Man means more to me than a sparrow, and I don;t need a deity to tell me that.

God became a man. So man must be important. He did not become a gerbil or a hedgehog. The Word did not become an gorilla. But the Word became flesh - Humanity. So the worth of man is seen in the fact that the incarnation of God was to a man rather than a beast.

More words. Words words words, and not a single sentence that actually supports your contention that a theistic view of human life is valued higher than an atheistic one. If I, as an Atheist who couldn't care less about what your imaginary friend thinks about humanity, already value human life as the single greatest and most important thing in all of existence, how could you ever show that theists value human life more?

But beasts are cool too. I use to have a pet king snake. I've had cats and dogs and birds and mice. So I like animals.

But man is unique because he has a spirit to contact God. And man is made to live in God and have God live in him.

Useles statements of belief devoid of fact. However, man is self-aware, and in that we are mostly-unique among animals (there's some debate with regard to a few other species, as sentience is more of a spectrum than a binary switch). I couldn't care less about your sky-man or your imagined "spirit," but I do care very deeply about you and every other person in the world, and I value you and everyone else more than I value a snake or a cat or a dog.

As an Atheist, my estimation of the value of human life does not come from any fairy tale book and is completely independent of our origins; it makes no difference if we are some cosmic science project, the magically animated dust-bunnies of Genesis, or apes. I value human life because we are self-aware, thinking and feeling individuals. I think that every single human life is absolutely precious, and that any time that anyone dies or suffers it is sad. I don't need some fictional father figure to care about me for me to care about everyone else - I want you, me, and everyone else in the world to be free from hunger, pain, and disease. I want you, me, and everyone else in the world to live happy, fulfilling lives. I don't think that anything in the world is more important than human well-being; that regardless of notions of fairness and the responsibility of risk, I don't want to see my neighbor be made homeless because he made a bad business decision, and I'm willing to pay higher taxes to ensure that society helps him get back on his feet. I oppose the death penalty because it's sad that any human being should have to die, and it's reprehensible that we could possibly ever execute an innocent person, and I'd rather show mercy to a hundred thousand murderers than make one innocent person die. I oppose massive military budgets because I know that the money we spend on weapons for killing could instead be spent on food and infrastructure to save millions of lives and improve the standard of living of countless more.

The problem here is that so much of your sentiment is probably based on Judeo/Christian ethics to begin with.

...and so now you try to take credit for Atheistic morality, and say that I'm just parroting you theists anyway.

You're a bad joke.

My morality is based upon empathy and ethical utilitarianism. Ancient books don;t tell me what I should or shouldn't do; I don't feel guilty one bit about having sex outside of marriage, or "rebelling" against my parents, or coveting what others have, or not loving imaginary father figures. Biblical ethics are authoritarian, and authoritarianism makes me want to vomit. My moral thinking is completely and totally separate from any theistic influences...considering I don;t even believe any deities exist.

"Love thy neighbor as you love yourself" is great moral advice, except that I'd modify it to "treat your neighbor the way he'd like to be treated, not just the way you'd like to be treated, just in case you like cherry pie and he hates it."

But then, the Bible isn;t the only source for that little nugget of morality. The same basic instruction has popped up all over the world, in cultures both theistic and atheistic...not because we're all secretly basing our morality on your morality, but because all human beings posses empathy, the ability to identify with other human beings and recognize that the suffering of others is like the suffering of ourselves.

Drop the self-righteous bullshit. Your Jesus is not the only source of morality in the world, or even the best; he never was, and never will be.

Someone said they saw on a train a little child sitting on the lap of a parent and trying to smack the parent in the face. Without the child sitting on the parent's lap it would not be able to reach the face of the parent to slap it.

So when I hear a lot of athiests try to scold God it seems that they do so from the vantage point of having ingested so much Judeo/ Christian ethical philosophy to begin with.

How much of your sentiment about the worth of man, the good works of humanitarian activity is inspired perhaps subconsciously, by something in the Bible ?

You sit there and scold God and believers in God about the worth of people, freedom from hunger, good deeds, liberation, the sparring of the innocent, justice, etc.

So while you are sitting there wagging your finger in God's face, your positioned on the lap of a lot of Judeo/ Christian morality that is at the foundation of this Western culture.

In order to get close to God to give Him a good slap you have to be positioned on a lot of ethics and morality you derived from Judeo / Christian worldview.

...idiot. Prove that my ethics are based on Judeo-Christian ethics or concede, immediately.

You didn't derive all that ethical thought from Stone Henge or the Egyptian Ra.

No. I derived it from logic and empathy, which I;ve stated all allong. Nitwit.


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 Message 85 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 4:34 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 87 of 112 (585372)
10-07-2010 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jaywill
10-07-2010 3:47 PM


jaywill writes:

Ringo, DON"T WAIT FOR THE PERFECT CHRISTIAN TO COME ALONG.


You don't have to be a "perfect" Christian. I'd just like to see you tone down the arrogance a notch or ten. I'd like to see you read the Bible honestly instead of chasing your tail and barking, "The Bible is true because the Bible is true."

I think that's the key to this thread. Atheists are interested in discussing the Bible because they want to help people escape. You'd be a much more effective Bible teacher if you could demonstrate something in your life that people want. All you're demonstrating is chains.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 88 of 112 (585373)
10-07-2010 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jaywill
10-07-2010 4:34 PM


Re: Atheists value human life just as much as anyone else.
The problem here is that so much of your sentiment is probably based on Judeo/Christian ethics to begin with.

Someone said they saw on a train a little child sitting on the lap of a parent and trying to smack the parent in the face. Without the child sitting on the parent's lap it would not be able to reach the face of the parent to slap it.

So when I hear a lot of athiests try to scold God it seems that they do so from the vantage point of having ingested so much Judeo/ Christian ethical philosophy to begin with.

How much of your sentiment about the worth of man, the good works of humanitarian activity is inspired perhaps subconsciously, by something in the Bible ?

You sit there and scold God and believers in God about the worth of people, freedom from hunger, good deeds, liberation, the sparring of the innocent, justice, etc.

So while you are sitting there wagging your finger in God's face, your positioned on the lap of a lot of Judeo/ Christian morality that is at the foundation of this Western culture.

In order to get close to God to give Him a good slap you have to be positioned on a lot of ethics and morality you derived from Judeo / Christian worldview.

You didn't derive all that ethical thought from Stone Henge or the Egyptian Ra.

But a moment's thought would show you that this is nonsense.

The atheist (often explicitly) rejects all specifically Judeo-Christian "morality", such as the necessity to stone to death unruly children or to abstain from eating lobsters.

But atheists adopt that morality which comes naturally to all humans, such as the Golden Rule:

You shall love your neighbour as yourself. --- JUDAISM: Leviticus 19.18

Treat others as thou wouldst be treated by thyself. --- SIKHISM: Adi Grandth

Desire not for anyone the things that ye would not desire for
yourselves. --- BAHÁ'Í FAITH: Gleanings 66

That nature is only good when it shall not do unto another whatever is
not good for its own self. --- ZOROASTRIANISM: Dadistan-i-Dinik

All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even
so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. --- CHRISTIANITY: Matthew 7.12

Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he
loves for himself. --- ISLAM: Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi

Hurt not others with that which pains yourself. --- BUDDHISM: Udana 5.13

Regard your Neighbour's gain as your own gain and your neighbour's
loss as your own loss. --- TAOISM:T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien

Never do to others what would pain thyself. --- HINDUISM: Panchatantra 3.104

Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you. --- CONFUCIANISM: Analects 15.23

"That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another." --- ANCIENT EGYPTIAN: untitled late period hieratic wisdom text

"What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others." --- GREEK PHILOSOPHY: Encheiridion of Epictetus

Now Christianity takes our basic human impulses to good, abrogates them to itself, anthropomorphises them as God, and then tells me in his name to go and burn an unbeliever or fight a holy war or at the very least to worship a deity who is, however you slice it, a genocidal maniac.

It derives its vestige of legitimacy from universal concepts of morality which it demonstrably did not in fact supply --- demonstrably because they are universal. And then, perched on the lap of what is in fact human thought, it uses this position to give it a good slap in the face.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2010 4:34 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 83 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 89 of 112 (585374)
10-07-2010 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jaywill
10-07-2010 4:34 PM


Demonstrating more nonsense
So when I hear a lot of athiests try to scold God it seems that they do so from the vantage point of having ingested so much Judeo/ Christian ethical philosophy to begin with.

Atheists don't scold gods, because we don't believe in gods.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Rahvin, posted 10-07-2010 6:42 PM subbie has responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 90 of 112 (585375)
10-07-2010 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by subbie
10-07-2010 6:38 PM


Re: Demonstrating more nonsense
Atheists don't scold gods, because we don't believe in gods.

Perhaps jaywill gives a leprechaun a good spanking each night for being part of pagan mythology?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by subbie, posted 10-07-2010 6:38 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by subbie, posted 10-07-2010 6:47 PM Rahvin has responded

  
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