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Author Topic:   why is the atheist obsessed with the Bible
Portillo
Member (Idle past 2234 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 106 of 112 (619462)
06-09-2011 9:09 PM


There is no evidence in the Hebrew text of a gap between Genesis 1 and 2. It doesnt tell us much besides the instantaneous and miraculous act of God by which He brought the universe and earth into existence.

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Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Replies to this message:
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RCS
Member (Idle past 682 days)
Posts: 48
From: Delhi, Delhi, India
Joined: 07-04-2007


Message 107 of 112 (620800)
06-21-2011 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
09-14-2010 5:47 PM


Clear. Atheists in west are living in the xian environment. So their views are decidedly influenced by bible and xianity.

There are "atheist" Hindus too. And their views are influenced by Hindus. The only difference is that they are not CLOSET atheists.

Atheists take a view contrary to the ambient theism.


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 108 of 112 (620804)
06-21-2011 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Portillo
06-09-2011 8:58 PM


Portillo writes:

I dont see how even an atheist or nonbeliever could possibly say that Genesis doesnt have an origin explanation

the trick to jar's post is in the wording, i think:

jar writes:

Actually, not even in Genesis. Genesis 1 is more a matter of organization. Genesis 2&3 have some critter creation. But neither is really about creation or provide any explanation of how anything gets created.

this is actually true, and a very astute reading of the text. in genesis 1, god simply commands things to happen, and they do. and most of his commands regard organization. there isn't anything being created out of nothing. similarly, in genesis 2, the existence of the world outside of eden is taken for granted. it's simply a story that happens when god created the earth.

though, i think jar is obfuscating the point a little. this is, indeed, how quite a lot of creation stories and epic read.

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Edited by arachnophilia, : what do you mean [u][/u] isn't bbcode?

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Portillo, posted 06-09-2011 8:58 PM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Portillo, posted 06-21-2011 4:58 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 109 of 112 (620807)
06-21-2011 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Portillo
06-09-2011 9:09 PM


Portillo writes:

There is no evidence in the Hebrew text of a gap between Genesis 1 and 2

gap, no. difference, yes. for instance, there's a clear instance of bookending going on here:

quote:
אֵלֶּה תוֹלְדוֹת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ, בְּהִבָּרְאָם
בְּיוֹם, עֲשׂוֹת יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים--אֶרֶץ וְשָׁמָיִם

בְּרֵאשִׁית 2:4


notice how the lines contain basically the same words, but suddenly in a different style? suddenly, שמים and ארץ switch order, and lose their definite articles. the first half of the verse takes the תולדות style, which is a pretty clear sign it was an addition by P (the author of the genealogies). another clear sign of the break is the beginning dependent clause:

  • ביום (complex preposition, "in the day" or "when")
  • עשות (infinitive construct, "the making of")
  • יהוה אלהים (subject "yahweh god")
  • ארץ ושמים (direct objects, "earth and heaven")
this directly mirrors the grammar of genesis 1:1,

  • בראשית (complex preposition, "in the beginning of" or "when ___ began")
  • ברא (probably mispointed infinitive construct, "creating of", cf; nJPS translation, rashi)
  • אלהים (subject, "god")
  • את הארץ ואת השמים (direct objects, "the earth and the heaven")
it also directly mimics the beginning of another section, genesis 5:1,2:

quote:
זֶה סֵפֶר, תּוֹלְדֹת אָדָם: בְּיוֹם, בְּרֹא אֱלֹהִים אָדָם, בִּדְמוּת אֱלֹהִים, עָשָׂה אֹתוֹ
זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה, בְּרָאָם; וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתָם, וַיִּקְרָא אֶת-שְׁמָם אָדָם, בְּיוֹם, הִבָּרְאָם.

notice the תולדות again, as well as the fact that ביום ברא אלהים אדם is precisely the same grammar as above: complex preposition, infinitive construct, subject, direct object, forming a dependent clause.

note also that the text suddenly begins using hashem. it's very, very clear that one story ends in genesis 2:3, and another begins in genesis 2:4. it's likely that the original story began in 2:4b (the second half of the verse), and the first half was added by the redactors in the style of the P (or perhaps the redactors are P, to smooth out the transition.

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Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


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ScientificBob
Member (Idle past 2337 days)
Posts: 48
From: Antwerp, Belgium
Joined: 03-29-2011


(1)
Message 110 of 112 (620808)
06-21-2011 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
09-14-2010 5:47 PM


quote:
if people want to believe, then it is none of the atheist business, if people want to preach it, it is none of the atheist's business, if people want to use faith healing on their children, it is none of the atheist's business.

Your beliefs inform your actions. You actions have consequences on your surroundings. Your surroundings include atheists. So yes, in a very real sense, it fact IS your neighbours business what you believe.

If you preach your religion, it is very annoying for people who aren't part of your club. Also, what you preach might not be social or promote division, entice hatred,... So yes, what you preach is very much your fellow citizen's business.

If your children do not get the medical care that they require because you practice "faith healing", then that is VERY MUCH society's business. Neglect of children is a serious offence.

quote:

if a family wants to go to church and have christian ideas taught in public school, then it is none of the atheist's business. if they do not like it, they can build their own schools and avoid the church buildings.

All citizens pay for public schools. YOU can build your own private schools if you want to teach your bullshit (eventhough I'ld regulate a curriculum for ALL schools, no matter if they are public or private, which reflects the secular society we live in). Public schools have been payed for with tax money from both theists (of all flavors) and atheists. Public schools are to be secular with no religion whatsoever, except perhaps an optional religious class.

quote:

if they do not like what others do, too bad, they do not get a say in those family affairs especiallysince they refuse to allow the christian the same right of interference in their own families.

Do you also believe that if your muslim neighbours are teaching their children that all non-muslims are dogs that deserve to die and prepping them to become suicide bombers should be left to do what they are doing because you have no say in their family affairs?
If not, then where do you draw the line? And if yes: do you think that that is a wise thing to do?

quote:
this obsession with the Bible, God and christians demonstrates that the ible is true

That's ridiculous. Atheists are just as much "obsessed" with the koran as with the bible. Does that make islam correct? In reality, off coure, no atheist is obsessed with any scripture. It's just that you happen to live in a country where christians are the majority. So christianity is the religion the atheists in that country are confronted with most. So it's only natural that they focus more on the bible then on other scripture when talking about religious stuff.

But off course, you allready know that.

quote:
these same peopel do not attack any false religion or their writngs as they do the Holy Bible and christianity

That's a very arbitrary statement imo.

quote:
what are they afraid of? If it is false then why are they so worried about it?

That their country turns into a fascist theocracy.

quote:
if evolution were true then why are they afraid of creation being taught in schools?

That's such a weird statement...
If the earth is really round, why aren't we teaching in schools that it is flat?

Think for a second will ya?

EDIT: oeps, only noticed just now that this is a thread from 2010 and I'm replying to the OP.... A well.

Edited by ScientificBob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 2234 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 111 of 112 (620809)
06-21-2011 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by arachnophilia
06-21-2011 4:36 AM


quote:
in genesis 1, god simply commands things to happen, and they do. and most of his commands regard organization. there isn't anything being created out of nothing.

Thats exactly what happened. The traditional belief is that God created the heavens and the earth "ex nihilo" or from nothing.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2011 4:36 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by arachnophilia, posted 06-21-2011 6:27 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 112 of 112 (620819)
06-21-2011 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Portillo
06-21-2011 4:58 AM


Portillo writes:

Thats exactly what happened. The traditional belief is that God created the heavens and the earth "ex nihilo" or from nothing.

the traditional belief is also that adam ate an apple in the garden of eden. the truth is that tradition rarely has any bearing on what the bible actually says.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


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