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Author Topic:   Can animals be caring and compassionate
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1 of 22 (581266)
09-14-2010 7:49 PM


As the owner of a couple of dogs I have often contemplated the question of whether or not animals are capable of acting beyond pure instinct, and if so, to what degree.
I received this e-mail today showing a crow taking care of an orphan kitten. The Crow and the Kitten I have received other similar e-mails in the past.
It does seem to me that animals are capable, in an animal like way, of acting compassionately and even with a degree of altruism.
Any comments?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-14-2010 11:04 PM GDR has replied
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 Message 17 by jasonlang, posted 09-15-2010 3:35 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-15-2010 6:38 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 5 of 22 (581311)
09-15-2010 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dr Adequate
09-14-2010 11:04 PM


Dr. Adequate writes:
Animals certainly behave altruistically, but I don't know why we should think of that as being "beyond pure instinct". Maybe they do so and they do so instinctively.
I suppose that when I think about instinct I mean the instinct for survival. I think a lot of people look at pets and think that they bond to humans out of their need to be fed and feel secure. I agree that that does play a large part in their behaviour but I also think it goes beyond that.
I think though, what interested me in this particular video is that you have a totally wild crow seemingly showing empathy and a sense of connection and fondness that likely surprises us. It can't be something that has rubbed off from humans as it might be argued in the case of a pet.
Here is a very short bit on the intelligence of chickens I realize that intelligence is not the same thing as emotion or altruism but I think that if animals are more intelligent than we have previously thought then they are more likely to be capable of emotion and/or altruism.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

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 Message 2 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-14-2010 11:04 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 9 of 22 (581368)
09-15-2010 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by caffeine
09-15-2010 9:40 AM


Re: Intelligence and caring instincts
caffeine writes:
I'm saying it's wrong to treat these as somehow seperate from instinct. That's what emotions are for, in a sense. To predispose animals towards certain forms of behaviour.
I think that there are behaviours that go beyond instinct such as the guy who risks his life to save someone else. The natural instinct would be for survival but we are able to rise above instinct.
In this case we have a crow that is attracted to, feeds and cares for a young kitten. That is unusual and I think that this particular crow seems to have risen to something that is beyond his instinctive norm.

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 Message 8 by caffeine, posted 09-15-2010 9:40 AM caffeine has replied

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 Message 10 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 10:23 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 11 by caffeine, posted 09-15-2010 10:25 AM GDR has replied
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 09-15-2010 11:53 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 12 of 22 (581382)
09-15-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by caffeine
09-15-2010 10:25 AM


Re: Intelligence and caring instincts
GDR writes:
I think that there are behaviours that go beyond instinct such as the guy who risks his life to save someone else. The natural instinct would be for survival but we are able to rise above instinct.
caffeine writes:
You're leaping to an assumption right away here, though. Why should the natural instinct necessarily be for survival? I think you've gotten too caught up in the 'survival of the fittest' phrase. You need to remember that what's really important evolutionarily, in the sense of what will be selected for and passed on to future generations, is reproductive success, not survival.
That makes no sense. In order for someone to have reproductive success it is necessary for them to survive in the first place. Obviously if someone altruistically gives up their life then their future reproductive success is zero.
I don't see any evolutionary advantage in what the crow, or the gorilla for that matter, have for displaying what appear to be similar emotional behaviour as humans.
The whole thing also raises the question of how far down the chain does this go. Can a fish experience compassion? How about a cockroach?
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.
Edited by GDR, : typo

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by caffeine, posted 09-15-2010 10:25 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 09-15-2010 12:05 PM GDR has replied
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 15 of 22 (581422)
09-15-2010 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Modulous
09-15-2010 11:53 AM


Re: Intelligence and caring instincts
Modulous writes:
That maybe your natural instinct - but it might not be that guy's. What evidence do you have that his instinct was not to help. Maybe his instinct said help but his conscious thought tried to over rule it "Don't do it, it's dangerous, someone else will do it...somebody with more training and who hasn't just had a big meal....".
Yes and no. I contend that our natural instinct is the survival instinct but that our natural instinct can be adjusted by influences in our lives so that it does become more or less instinctive to do the unselfish thing for the benefit of someone else.
Modulous writes:
As humans, the instinct seems to be "go to extraordinary lengths to help out one of your own and go to extraordinary lengths to ignore or harm those that are not of your own." What is considered 'one of your own' is malleable. You could split 20 people into two random groups and members of both groups will feel they are stronger than the other team at whatever arbitrary task you assign them.
There does seem to be a great many people who do harm to their own and a great many people do good for those who are not of their own.
It seems to me that if you are going to make the argument that it is about maintaining your blood line then the only ones that would be considered 'one of your own' would be those in your own gene pool.
Modulous writes:
Convince someone that 'your own' includes your nation (With its Founding Fathers) and they might kill and die for their country (the best units are those with absolute cohesion...a 'band of brothers' you might say). Convince them it is their religious 'brothers and sisters' - and they'll kill and die for them just as easily.
Isn't that about being indoctrinated to overcome your natural instinct?
Modulous writes:
It is certainly beyond it's norm - but birds have been known to feed cuckoos and other bird's children to the point of self exhaustion (and have even fed fake birds setup by evil ornithologists, to exhaustion). Maternal and paternal instincts are incredibly strong - and if they 'make a mistake' the results can be striking.
Once again yes and no. I agree the paternal instinct can be strong but it also seems to end when the offspring mature and go off on their own. I know when we took our pup back to visit its mother there appeared to be zero recognition. This seems to be normal for all animals other than humans. If they lose the parental instinct for their own offspring then I'm inclined to think that there is more going on than just parental instinct in the case of the crow, although maybe less so for the gorilla.
Of course this is all just my opinion but it appears to me that animals, even wild ones, are capable of a degree of altruism that goes beyond their natural instinct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 09-15-2010 11:53 AM Modulous has replied

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 16 of 22 (581428)
09-15-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Modulous
09-15-2010 12:05 PM


Re: Intelligence and caring instincts
Modulous writes:
Once you realize that an individual human's reproductive success is contingent on their being other individual humans on his side in this dangerous world - it should seem less mysterious to you.
People die trying to save the lives of those they don't even know. They have no idea whether they are on their side or not. People risk their lives for their pets.
Modulous writes:
The reasons why animals and humans have similar emotions isn't because it is an advantage to animals to have similar emotions to humans but because humans, and other animals have inherited those emotions from their ancestors.
I'm more inclined to believe that it is a learned response. Just look at a nest of young birds fighting over every scrap of food. How about a litter of young pigs pushing aside siblings to get at one of the sow's teats.
There doesn't seem to be any altruism amongst the newly born, animal or human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 09-15-2010 12:05 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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