Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 79 (8897 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-20-2019 1:13 AM
214 online now:
Meddle, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK, vimesey (4 members, 210 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,462 Year: 3,499/19,786 Month: 494/1,087 Week: 84/212 Day: 0/14 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
56
7
891011Next
Author Topic:   Existence After Death
dyluck
Member (Idle past 2988 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 91 of 163 (586455)
10-13-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by onifre
10-12-2010 5:13 PM


Re: Life After Death
Thanks for the replies oni! i do respect the fact that you respond.

onifre writes:

You said, "So there was day and night in Heaven," you said that as fact. Which to me, it seems silly to think that an immaterial place is going to have a sun and a moon and a functioning solar system as found in reality. Do you ever look into this stuff?


Sorry, I meant to say "say" not "so"
The bible doesn't say we will live in an immaterial place and be immaterial beings. The "spiritual afterlife" as it were is a moment, age or what have you. The bible doesn't go into detail about exact times; however, biblically, we will be resurrected as Jesus resurected into a new, eternal, body and on a new earth. People who reap the consequences of God's wrath will also resurrect the same, be judged, and be cast into the lake of fire.

onifre writes:


I am the master of my domain...sometimes.


If by master, do you mean you make 100% free will decisions without any outside influence what-so-ever?

onifre writes:


I'm an atheist, so currently I have neither experienced nor seen any tangible, empirical evidence to support any god concept that humans believe in today or throughout history.


But yet, I would argue, you haven't seen, or experience anything tangible for any first level sources to justify a believe in atheism as well; yet, I can conclude by your own designation, you put your faith in the notion of nothingness.

onifre writes:


After I die is of no concern to me just like before I was born. There is no need for wishful thinking or to live your life by some rule that good here rewards you somekind of special treatment when you're dead - just don't be a dick to people while you're alive should be enough.


You must put faith in your first sentance for you to make statements like that.
Can I interject? Lets go back to our inability here. I don't know if you ever heard a Christian say their are "free" after they have "converted". Unfortunately many people mix that up. "free" isn't a license to be "born again" yet live the devil, a hypocritical life. "free" is the God given ability to seek and follow God. The bible implicitly says that you cannot even come to God without God changing your very heart and nature first. Spiritually and supernaturally speaking, giving life to a dead man who is incapable of his own ability to come to God let alone please him, opening his eyes and ears so that he can respond to God.
This is what separates every other religion of self righteous works salvation and salvation based on the virtue and merit of another, the only one capable and worthy before a Triune holy God (Jesus, God's Son).
Hopefully, this statment will answer another question from others. Most people say what a ridiciouls thing. A God creates man after his image, alows them to sin, damns them to hell... for what? "I can't love a God like that". Well, you aren't God and, by reading the bible, we understand God's purpose. His purpose is always himself, his glory and his person. That said. How would creation know of his mercy if there were no instance of his mercy being shown? What about wrath, justice, love, soverigenty, salvation so on and so on. Understand, I do not believe this life is about me and some Ogre that sets some random life in motion, sits back and watches it all fall appart. I believe God's hand is in everything and everything plays out according to His will, purpose and good pleasure.

Now the fact of the matter is, he could have chosen not to show mercy at all... or enough love to his creation to crush his own son so that we may be saved from our God hating sin.

onifre writes:


How am I chancing anything? Do you mean like some sort of Pascal's Wager?

We all take risk and chance. Do you truly know what will happen after you die? It never happened to you? Probably not. Therefore its like closing your eyes, plugging your nose and jump in on blind faith that what you believed was true in the end. Call it what you will. God cannot be summed up logically and in inconceivable. But, rejecting a valid "logical" point, at least I don't have anything to lose if I die and cease to exist. You certainly do if you are, indeed, wrong. So I can give Pascal some credit. Please understand, this last statement is not a tactic to make you believe.

I believe implicitly that only God can open a heart like yours or mine for this crazy and rather scandalous, God sacrificing himself in place of us notion, to make sense to the point that it consumes your very outlook on life!

Edited by dyluck, : quote syntax issue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by onifre, posted 10-12-2010 5:13 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 10-13-2010 12:13 PM dyluck has responded
 Message 146 by onifre, posted 10-14-2010 8:08 PM dyluck has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 163 (586456)
10-13-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by dyluck
10-13-2010 12:09 PM


Re: Life After Death
dyluck writes:

I believe implicitly that only God can open a heart like yours or mine for this crazy and rather scandalous, God sacrificing himself in place of us notion, to make sense to the point that it consumes your very outlook on life!

As a Christian that has never made any sense and just makes the god being marketed look stupid.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 12:09 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 12:22 PM jar has not yet responded

  
dyluck
Member (Idle past 2988 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 93 of 163 (586459)
10-13-2010 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Omnivorous
10-12-2010 2:22 PM


Re: Life After Death
Omnivorous writes:

I've always found it striking that believers here tell atheists that if there were no God, everyone could loot, pillage and rape to their hearts' content, and everyone would.

Since I don't, and none of the atheists I know do, I have to wonder what prompts that notion; perhaps you believers are restraining yourselves only by your religious beliefs?

Is that true?


Awesome statement and a very valid challenge.
Let me tell you something about religion. Religion is a set of beliefs, practices, rituals and so on that, in essence, must be done in order to be saved.

What most people and many Christians as well don't realize is that the difference between Religion and dare i say "true Christianity" is that Religion is devoid of God.
the bible says: "If you love me, you will obey my commands". It does not say: "If you love me you must obey my commands". There are many others, but that is the most easy to understand.

I hope you can see the difference in that statement. One of the evidences you are talking to a true Christian is literally his actions. Are they forced beyond his wanting? or are they just a product of who he is? Is that persons nature different?

So if you find someone telling you he is a "Believer" yet, with all his might, restraining himself from doing all the evil things he loves. You should question his salvation as it were.

Edited by dyluck, : grammar and spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Omnivorous, posted 10-12-2010 2:22 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
dyluck
Member (Idle past 2988 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 94 of 163 (586462)
10-13-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
10-13-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Life After Death
Yeah, I read over that and probably could have added a couple more sentances to make it more understandable.

Anyway, nobody is out "marketing God". The fact is, this is Ev. vs. Cre. forum and its a given I will be talking faith.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 10-13-2010 12:13 PM jar has not yet responded

    
dyluck
Member (Idle past 2988 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 95 of 163 (586468)
10-13-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Dr Adequate
10-12-2010 2:49 PM


Re: Life After Death
Dr Adequate writes:

Yeah, look, I'm not arguing that people don't do bad things. I myself have done bad things. If you want to argue for Christianity, that's a good place to start.
But instead you start by arguing that the average person is more evil than Hitler. Well, no we're not.

Ok, by what standard are you referring? Where did you learn your moral ability? Was it by your culture, your upbrining ? Where did your culture get their morals?
Interesting how, no matter what culture, every one of them has a problem with murder among others. Where does that come from? Where did a cell or primate in evololution ever come to understand what is right from wrong? Who was the first person to say murder was wrong? You see, we live in a culture where it is wrong. Althought the mayans knew what they were doing was wrong. For some strange reason, they sacrificed themselves in some crazy genocidal mass slaying.

Since the begining of mankind, religion (I hate using that word) has always brought about a moralistic governance.

Although, you compare yourself now as it were. I was arguing without the grace of God, everyone would be left to their inherant evil desires.

I think the problem with most people. Is that everyone knows they are a sinner. The problem is they really don't konw what that means and how bad it really is. Nobody analyszes their "man I hate that person" thoughts or "uugg i just wished he would die" thoughts. And all of us have thought that... So, to you, what makes a murderur in their minds, any differnt in desire then the ones who, without thought carries them out?

Thing is, most people hate hitler and wished he would have justice on him. Nobody stops and realize that hitler was doing what he did because of what he thougth was best... the result of fastening evolution's doctrine in inequality. One person is more evolved then another; lets keep all the "more evolved humans". Hitler was twisted and functining off his own make my own rules, answer to myself morals and mantality. He had nobody to answer to but himself and what he thought was right. Unfortunatly he was dead wrong...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-12-2010 2:49 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by DrJones*, posted 10-13-2010 12:57 PM dyluck has responded
 Message 98 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 1:20 PM dyluck has responded
 Message 100 by Panda, posted 10-13-2010 1:59 PM dyluck has not yet responded
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 10-13-2010 2:30 PM dyluck has responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1805
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 96 of 163 (586471)
10-13-2010 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by dyluck
10-13-2010 12:39 PM


Re: Life After Death
Althought the mayans knew what they were doing was wrong.

Your evidence for this is?

Is that everyone knows they are a sinner.

I'm not a sinner.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 12:39 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 2:09 PM DrJones* has responded

  
dyluck
Member (Idle past 2988 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 97 of 163 (586476)
10-13-2010 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
10-12-2010 2:54 PM


Re: Life After Death
ringo writes:

No. For one thing, he doesn't have a right to use it as a murder weapon.


So, if you made something. A painting for instance. you dont' have the right to either display it for everyone to see or to hide it in your basement or to tear it appart?
wonder why you would expect God to have any less rights then you let alone more concidering he is indeed the Creator.

dyluck writes:
Honestly, if there is a God, creator of the universe. How can anyone stand against Him?

ringo writes:


Now you're conflating right with might.


Tell me then my friend. How do you manage what is right and wrong for a God? If he exists, what are you going to do to stand against him? I picture a nat banging its head against a wall a mile thick and a mile long. I'm not meaning you being the nat by the way Just painting a picture if you will.

ringo writes:

God [voice of Marlon Brando] says: "What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully with your sinning? [thoughtful pause] I'm gonna make you an offer you can't refuse. [dramatic pause] Kill my son and we'll call it even."
That isn't justice. It's sheer stupidity.


You are right. It does sound crazy. Yet people infadically believe it. Most people are like you, see it for a scandal and walk away. Some see it as everything to them.

ringo writes:


The reason that I (and probably many others) reject fundamentalist dogma is because it's really, really stupid. If there was life after death, I certainly wouldn't want to spend it with such an idiotic god or anybody who's idiotic enough to follow him. (No offense intended. )


And if there is life after death and this "idiotic god" exists. What you going to do then? This type of thought to me is ignorant and almost appears more brave more faith to believe then anything I know. But that is just me

ringo writes:


Non sequitur.


ugg you made me google that

All Non sequitur laughs asside. How do you reason with non eternity?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 10-12-2010 2:54 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 10-13-2010 1:30 PM dyluck has not yet responded
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 10-13-2010 2:22 PM dyluck has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 98 of 163 (586477)
10-13-2010 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by dyluck
10-13-2010 12:39 PM


Re: Life After Death
Ok, by what standard are you referring?

The average person is not worse than Hitler by pretty much any moral standard.

A more interesting question would be, what standard are you using to say that they are?

Althought the mayans knew what they were doing was wrong. For some strange reason, they sacrificed themselves in some crazy genocidal mass slaying.

Since the begining of mankind, religion (I hate using that word) has always brought about a moralistic governance.

Those two sentences make for an odd juxtaposition. The Mayans performed human sacrifice because of their religion.

Thing is, most people hate hitler and wished he would have justice on him. Nobody stops and realize that hitler was doing what he did because of what he thougth was best... the result of fastening evolution's doctrine in inequality. One person is more evolved then another; lets keep all the "more evolved humans".

A thesis somewhat spoiled by the fact that Hitler was a creationist.

Hitler was twisted and functining off his own make my own rules, answer to myself morals and mantality. He had nobody to answer to but himself and what he thought was right.

He thought that he was answerable to God, who he thought would approve of what he was doing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 12:39 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 2:26 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 163 (586478)
10-13-2010 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by dyluck
10-13-2010 1:19 PM


Re: Life After Death
dyluck writes:

So, if you made something. A painting for instance. you dont' have the right to either display it for everyone to see or to hide it in your basement or to tear it appart?
wonder why you would expect God to have any less rights then you let alone more concidering he is indeed the Creator.

dyluck writes:
Honestly, if there is a God, creator of the universe. How can anyone stand against Him?

We may well fail, but if it is the God you market we are charged to at least try to stand against it.

dyluck writes:

Tell me then my friend. How do you manage what is right and wrong for a God? If he exists, what are you going to do to stand against him? I picture a nat banging its head against a wall a mile thick and a mile long. I'm not meaning you being the nat by the way Just painting a picture if you will.

The very same way Abraham did. We were given the great gift of the knowledge of good and evil and are expected to use it, even in challenging and correcting God.

But none of that has anything to do with the topic. The question is about Existence after Death, and there, no one really even has a clue.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 1:19 PM dyluck has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1787 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 100 of 163 (586482)
10-13-2010 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by dyluck
10-13-2010 12:39 PM


Re: Life After Death
dyluck writes:

Interesting how, no matter what culture, every one of them has a problem with murder among others. Where does that come from? Where did a cell or primate in evololution ever come to understand what is right from wrong? Who was the first person to say murder was wrong? You see, we live in a culture where it is wrong.


Murder is 'the unlawful killing of a human being by a human being', yes?
A synonym for 'unlawful' is 'wrong', yes?

So your point is: disparate cultures think the unlawful killing is unlawful.
I am not sure that is much of a point.

Different cultures have allowed the lawful killing of people for all kinds of reasons - some of which you would find abhorrent.
e.g.
Child sacrifices
Honour killings
People torn apart by animals for entertainment
etc.

You really haven't thought this through, have you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 12:39 PM dyluck has not yet responded

  
dyluck
Member (Idle past 2988 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 101 of 163 (586484)
10-13-2010 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by DrJones*
10-13-2010 12:57 PM


Re: Life After Death
DrJones* writes:


Your evidence for this is?

DrJones* writes:


I'm not a sinner.


Hmmm... you obviously didn't look up the definition of sinner.
Sinner is a Transgressor and without a shadow of a doubt you have transgressed the law. This, in the simplest definition, makes you a sinner. I can bet, stacked up against the ominous 10 commandments, you have broken every law.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by DrJones*, posted 10-13-2010 12:57 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by DrJones*, posted 10-13-2010 2:25 PM dyluck has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16223
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 102 of 163 (586485)
10-13-2010 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by dyluck
10-13-2010 1:19 PM


Re: Life After Death
dyluck writes:

So, if you made something. A painting for instance. you dont' have the right to either display it for everyone to see or to hide it in your basement or to tear it appart?


As I said, I wouldn't have the right to use it as a murder weapon or to sell it fraudulently, etc. A creator's rights are limited.

dyluck writes:

How do you manage what is right and wrong for a God? If he exists, what are you going to do to stand against him?


Again, what does "standing against him" have to do with right or wrong? If he's wrong and I don't stand against him - even if I have no chance of winning - then I'm wrong too.

dyluck writes:

You are right. It does sound crazy. Yet people infadically believe it. Most people are like you, see it for a scandal and walk away. Some see it as everything to them.


Does it ever occur to you that it sounds crazy because it is crazy? Ask yourself why a god would make up such a crazy-sounding scheme to compensate him for our sins. Maybe you're mistaken about his plan. Or maybe he is crazy.

dyluck writes:

And if there is life after death and this "idiotic god" exists. What you going to do then?


That's Pascal's Wager. I'm not a gambler.

What are you going to do if there's an afterlife and it's ruled by Shiva?

dyluck writes:

How do you reason with non eternity?


"Non eternity" itself is a nonsense term.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 1:19 PM dyluck has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 10-13-2010 2:30 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1805
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 103 of 163 (586486)
10-13-2010 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by dyluck
10-13-2010 2:09 PM


Re: Life After Death
Sinner is a Transgressor and without a shadow of a doubt you have transgressed the law.

Who's law?

I can bet, stacked up against the ominous 10 commandments, you have broken every law.

Probably, but who cares about those?

I've had sex outside of marriage, you might view that as wrong/bad/sin but I sure as hell didn't.

My last girlfriend was a wonderful Pakistani lady, I'm Whitey McWhiterson. You may or may not consider inter-racial relationships as bad/wrong/sin and I know my racist Gandmother's head would have exploded if she knew but I never saw anything wrong with it.

You might consider everyone a sinner, but that is not the same thing as:

... everyone knows they are a sinner.

because "sin" is an inherently religous concept and not everyone shares your religion.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 2:09 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 2:37 PM DrJones* has responded

  
dyluck
Member (Idle past 2988 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 104 of 163 (586487)
10-13-2010 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2010 1:20 PM


Re: Life After Death
Dr Adequate writes:


Those two sentences make for an odd juxtaposition. The Mayans performed human sacrifice because of their religion.


Exactly. a leagilistic moral superceede that goes against the very basic preserve of life.

Dr Adequate writes:


A thesis somewhat spoiled by the fact that Hitler was a creationist.


Where'd you get that from? Did you study the history and WW2? A close friend of mine did the majority of his graduate degree on hitler and he was, indeed an evolutionist.

"A review of the writings of Hitler and contemporary German biologists finds that Darwins theory and writings had a major influence on Nazi policies. In the formation of his racial policies, [Hitler] relied heavily upon the Darwinian evolution model, especially the elaborations by Spencer and Haeckel. They culminated in the final solution, the extermination of approximately six million Jews and four million other people who belonged to what German scientists judged were inferior races (Bergman,1992, p. 109).
"

As an example sir.

Dr Adequate writes:


He thought that he was answerable to God, who he thought would approve of what he was doing.


Don't jump into my backyard and feed me this retoric when you don't even know the subject fully yourself. Hitler did make notions to religion and morality. Political statements about religion and state and declaired Germany as a Christian country; however, a professing christian himself or not, the acceptance of evolution was in his very motive. I would then say, no matter if he even called himself a believer in "God", he was not a christian (Obvious by his actions) and further more was an avid supporter of evolution.

interesting as 9 out of 10 evolutinists believe in evolution yet the minute you start talking about the basics of darwinsm, can talk circles around them. They just believe what they were taught in school. Interesting how many times you hear. He who controls the schools controls the country.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 1:20 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Coragyps, posted 10-13-2010 2:39 PM dyluck has responded
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 3:07 PM dyluck has responded
 Message 112 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 3:12 PM dyluck has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 105 of 163 (586488)
10-13-2010 2:27 PM


Let's go back to the OP for a moment, now that Dyluck is here to give us her/his spin on an answer.

When I die, here within the next thirty years or so, the voltages across all the synapses in by body and brain will go to zero. All of the "me" that anyone can account for is either in my largely protein and lipid body or a product of the non-zero voltages I now have across various synapses.

Dyluck: when the electrons cease to flow across my nerve ends, where do you think they'll go? Will they go fry in Hell? Or will they be no longer needed, and something less material than them goes to fry in Hell? When my proteins rot away and I have no nervous system or voltages at all, how am I going to be able to suffer eternally in this Hell place? What does the suffering? Electrons? Gluons? Higgs bosons?

Or if it's my body and mind, how do they get reconstituted? Is your answer "We'll know that when we get there?"


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by 1.61803, posted 10-13-2010 3:32 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
Prev1
...
56
7
891011Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019