Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8942 total)
37 online now:
DrJones*, Faith, jar, PaulK, Percy (Admin), PurpleYouko, vimesey (7 members, 30 visitors)
Newest Member: John Sullivan
Post Volume: Total: 863,628 Year: 18,664/19,786 Month: 1,084/1,705 Week: 336/518 Day: 12/88 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Existence After Death
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 106 of 163 (586489)
10-13-2010 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by dyluck
10-13-2010 12:39 PM


dyluck writes:

Thing is, most people hate hitler and wished he would have justice on him.


Actually, Hitler is one reason why I hope there is no afterlife. If he repented and became a Southern Baptist just before he pulled the trigger, I still don't want him as a next-door neighbour in Heaven. Same goes for Jeffrey Dahmer, Ronald Reagan, etc.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 12:39 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 3:19 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 107 of 163 (586490)
10-13-2010 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
10-13-2010 2:22 PM


Re: Life After Death
Ringo writes:

That's Pascal's Wager. I'm not a gambler.

More like the classic misrepresentation of Pascal's Wager.

What Pascal said is that we should live our lives as though we were going to be judged. It is simply an admonition that each of us should try to behave well and was not talking about the afterlife but our current life.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 10-13-2010 2:22 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
dyluck
Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 108 of 163 (586492)
10-13-2010 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by DrJones*
10-13-2010 2:25 PM


Re: Life After Death
DrJones* writes:

Who's law?


Seriously? Well I will take it as either you are being extreamly facetious, purposly scoffing, purposly ignorant or i need to burry my face in my hands.

Transgression can be on any law, land or God. I would say since most land laws line up with God's law, then you have broken both.

DrJones* writes:


Probably, but who cares about those?
I've had sex outside of marriage, you might view that as wrong/bad/sin but I sure as hell didn't.


Well, you sure can pick out the sin in your life pretty easy
I'm not judging you, not my job. I can help you see it but you are obviously doing that very good yourself.

DrJones* writes:


My last girlfriend was a wonderful Pakistani lady, I'm Whitey McWhiterson. You may or may not consider inter-racial relationships as bad/wrong/sin and I know my racist Gandmother's head would have exploded if she knew but I never saw anything wrong with it.


There is 1 race, human race. Racism is not a reflection at all of Christ. In fact, I would argue that Evolution is racist.


You might consider everyone a sinner,

You are catching on for sure!


but that is not the same thing as:
... everyone knows they are a sinner.
because "sin" is an inherently religous concept and not everyone shares your religion.

Yes and no. Sin is a term widly used in the unreligious world as a term for bad, evil or provoitive. You can't argue people don't know what sin is because they do know.

Everyone is aware of their sin. One of the biggest reasons why people hate God is because they are aware of their sin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by DrJones*, posted 10-13-2010 2:25 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by DrJones*, posted 10-13-2010 3:09 PM dyluck has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5399
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 109 of 163 (586494)
10-13-2010 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by dyluck
10-13-2010 2:26 PM


Re: Life After Death
a leagilistic moral superceede that goes against the very basic preserve of life. (sic)

What? Without the Aztecs (and Mayans?) cutting hearts out of folks, all mankind and the whole earth would have ended! They were preserving life with every slice!


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 2:26 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 5:18 PM Coragyps has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 110 of 163 (586496)
10-13-2010 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by dyluck
10-13-2010 2:26 PM


Re: Life After Death
Where'd you get that from?

From reading what Hitler actually said and wrote, instead of learning to recite creationist nonsense.

The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator. - Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)

From where do we get the right to believe, that from the very beginning Man was not what he is today? Looking at Nature tells us, that in the realm of plants and animals changes and developments happen. But nowhere inside a kind shows such a development as the breadth of the jump , as Man must supposedly have made, if he has developed from an ape-like state to what he is today. - Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Tabletalk (Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier)

For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. ii, ch. x

The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger. The only difference that can exist within the species must be in the various degrees of structural strength and active power, in the intelligence, efficiency, endurance, etc., with which the individual specimens are endowed. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. i, ch. xi

interesting as 9 out of 10 evolutinists believe in evolution yet the minute you start talking about the basics of darwinsm, can talk circles around them.

I guess I must be one of the other 10%.

By the way, what do you suppose that your mistakes about Hitler have to do with "the basics of darwinism"?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 2:26 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 5:39 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1956
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 111 of 163 (586497)
10-13-2010 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by dyluck
10-13-2010 2:37 PM


Re: Life After Death
Well, you sure can pick out the sin in your life pretty easy

What sin? As I said, I am without sin.

Yes and no. Sin is a term widly used in the unreligious world as a term for bad, evil or provoitive.

True, but in this arguement you're not using sin = bad act. You're using sin = transgression of the Christian God's Law.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 2:37 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 5:44 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 112 of 163 (586498)
10-13-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by dyluck
10-13-2010 2:26 PM


Re: Life After Death
Exactly. a leagilistic moral superceede that goes against the very basic preserve of life.

Well, that's what happens when religion goes bad. Here's a typical inscription from a Mayan pyramid:

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

Oh, wait, sorry, that's the Old Testament.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 2:26 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 4:29 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
dyluck
Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 113 of 163 (586499)
10-13-2010 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
10-13-2010 2:30 PM


ringo writes:

Actually, Hitler is one reason why I hope there is no afterlife. If he repented and became a Southern Baptist just before he pulled the trigger, I still don't want him as a next-door neighbour in Heaven. Same goes for Jeffrey Dahmer, Ronald Reagan, etc.


Im a full believer in you reap what you sow. Secondly (this may stir up some trouble) but I don't believe a converted, regenerated christian could pull his own trigger. Referring to the bible, his nature couldn't allow it.
Now, hitler and many others like him are guilty of horrible horrible crimes and should pay for them. Would you wish an eternal punishment even on hitler? I think if we truly knew the extense of it, we wouldn't wish it on anyone.
That said. What if hitler converted, his life changed, his motives change he repented (turned away from his sin). He became a new man. Genocide stopped etc. Doesn't mean that he wouldn't still suffer the conceqences of his actions. It would mean that Hitler, would take his punishment on earth. Be still be a different person anyway. Humble and poor in spirit. In the case of conversion, Christ would have bore his haneous sin on the tree... I think if there were degrees of Hell, he would be at the bottom. If Christ paid that price... how much more would could appreciate what he would have done for us?
anyway, nobody knows, but if he took his own life, its evidence he was never saved to begin with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 10-13-2010 2:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by 1.61803, posted 10-13-2010 3:45 PM dyluck has responded
 Message 116 by frako, posted 10-13-2010 4:05 PM dyluck has responded
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 10-13-2010 4:30 PM dyluck has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2920
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 114 of 163 (586501)
10-13-2010 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Coragyps
10-13-2010 2:27 PM


Just read Dantes Inferno if your that curious!!
I believe it is: When I die, I may not go to heaven. Cuz I dont know if they let Cowboys in. If they dont, just lemme go to Texas! Cuz Texas is as close as Ive been" go Rangers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Coragyps, posted 10-13-2010 2:27 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2920
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 115 of 163 (586502)
10-13-2010 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by dyluck
10-13-2010 3:19 PM


dyluck writes:

"...its evidence he was never saved to begin with.


Not the point. The point was if Adolf received absolution and last rites prior to his death. Would it be springtime for Hitler in heaven?

Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 3:19 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 5:13 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 116 of 163 (586505)
10-13-2010 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by dyluck
10-13-2010 3:19 PM


Im a full believer in you reap what you sow. Secondly (this may stir up some trouble) but I don't believe a converted, regenerated christian could pull his own trigger. Referring to the bible, his nature couldn't allow it.
Now, hitler and many others like him are guilty of horrible horrible crimes and should pay for them. Would you wish an eternal punishment even on hitler? I think if we truly knew the extense of it, we wouldn't wish it on anyone.
That said. What if hitler converted, his life changed, his motives change he repented (turned away from his sin). He became a new man. Genocide stopped etc. Doesn't mean that he wouldn't still suffer the conceqences of his actions. It would mean that Hitler, would take his punishment on earth. Be still be a different person anyway. Humble and poor in spirit. In the case of conversion, Christ would have bore his haneous sin on the tree... I think if there were degrees of Hell, he would be at the bottom. If Christ paid that price... how much more would could appreciate what he would have done for us?
anyway, nobody knows, but if he took his own life, its evidence he was never saved to begin with.

umm hitler was doing gods work (or so he thoought), so ofcourse he is in hevan right along side the inquistors of the church, makes you think who goes to hell then


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 3:19 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 5:03 PM frako has not yet responded

    
dyluck
Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 117 of 163 (586509)
10-13-2010 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Life After Death
Dr Adequate writes:

Well, that's what happens when religion goes bad. Here's a typical inscription from a Mayan pyramid:

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
Oh, wait, sorry, that's the Old Testament.


I expect no less to hit hard. Many use this as a tool for disbelief.

There are no easy explination. You could say "gotcha". The old testament is just as vaild in biblical truth as the New testament. anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't fundimentally believe the bible is God breathed.

Now, there is no hiding the fact that God commanded the Isrealites to erradicate certian groups of people. Some, the reaons are beyond me. Honestly there are things in the bible to this day that I am still learning and have yet to be revealed to me and I do put faith in some things I do not understand.
Some things I can say for sure though.
God is God, and for thousands of years there hasn't been this kind of command. Revelation states that God, himself (not his people) will judge the world. I don't expect it to be pretty. In fact the description in Revelation isn't the santa clause people picture God as.
Secondly, Isreal was in a state of war and the Amalekites were a part of it. Also, the Amalekites were practicing some very horrid things.

quote:

The Amalekites were a source of constant woe to Israel. Shortly after the Israelites left Egypt, the Amalekites attacked the weary people, slaughtering the weak and elderly (Deuteronomy 25:18). Even the Babylonians had a bad opinion of them, calling them “Khabbati,” or “plunderers.” The Amalekites and Caananites, among other nations, practiced child burning, torture as public entertainment, and sexual immorality as sport. The Israelites later avenged the attack and defeated the Amalekites, but failed to completely eradicate the nation. Israel was then plagued with continuous Amalekite raids (Exodus 17; 1 Samuel 15:2; Numbers 14:45). We can safely assume that God knew Amalekite decedents would always bear rage against His people. In the book of Esther, Haman the son of the Agagite, who was an Amalekite king, sought to exterminate all the Jews. Even today, the name Amalek is a symbol for hatred against Jews. How different things might be had Israel obeyed God to the letter?

You should also remember the story of the Ninevites. God was warning them through Jonah to change their ways or be utterly destroyed, and they repented. God deals far more justly and mercifully than most people are willing to admit." - http://www.amazingfacts.org


God is soverign and, these things included I accept him as God and I have faith that he knows what's best for his people and I trust him.

Edited by dyluck, : syntax


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 3:12 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2010 5:45 PM dyluck has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 118 of 163 (586510)
10-13-2010 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by dyluck
10-13-2010 3:19 PM


dyluck writes:

Would you wish an eternal punishment even on hitler?


No, I wouldn't. If I did, I wouldn't be any better than him.

That's where the problem arises. Most fundamentalists have me consigned to eternal punishment because I've deconverted. There's no doubt that I'm a better person now than I was as a Christian but my fate is much worse. Yet Hitler may be in Heaven and I'm not.

That's why your god's "justice" makes no sense to most people, which implies that your god makes no sense in general. A much more sensible plan would be a cycle of reincarnation or just an end.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 3:19 PM dyluck has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by dyluck, posted 10-13-2010 4:44 PM ringo has responded

  
dyluck
Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 119 of 163 (586515)
10-13-2010 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
10-13-2010 4:30 PM


ringo writes:


No, I wouldn't. If I did, I wouldn't be any better than him.
That's where the problem arises. Most fundamentalists have me consigned to eternal punishment because I've deconverted. There's no doubt that I'm a better person now than I was as a Christian but my fate is much worse. Yet Hitler may be in Heaven and I'm not.


See nobody is consigning you to eternal punishment. At the end of the day, you are either for him or against him. Bible says, if you are against him.. well you know He says. Even more-so as a "deconverted christian" you know.
See, this is where I wouldn't have said you were truly converted but remained unconverted. The bible says that that once he starts a good work in you he will finish it. He will never let you go.
I grewup believing I was christian, lived like the devil, thought that Jesus did that whole die for me thing, i can be the devil and I will still go to "heaven". This wasn't me being christian at all... This was me lieing to everybody about what I was and thinking a carnal christian was actually christian. I was unconverted and God hating.
It wasn't until one day I got sideswiped by something I cant explain and my entire life changed without any explainable influence. Things I was habitually doing gone. I was free... free of habitual, god hating sin. I once loved it but now I hate it.

ringo writes:


That's why your god's "justice" makes no sense to most people, which implies that your god makes no sense in general. A much more sensible plan would be a cycle of reincarnation or just an end.


Ok, good statement, so you tell me what is good justice. How can God be a good judge?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 10-13-2010 4:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 10-13-2010 5:16 PM dyluck has responded

    
dyluck
Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-06-2010


Message 120 of 163 (586518)
10-13-2010 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by frako
10-13-2010 4:05 PM


frako writes:


umm hitler was doing gods work (or so he thoought), so ofcourse he is in hevan right along side the inquistors of the church, makes you think who goes to hell then


Curious, who made you the judge of hitler?
Who said the people running the crusades or hitler were even going to heaven? God's the judge of that.
There was a dark time in the Roman Church... God will deal with them severly I am sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by frako, posted 10-13-2010 4:05 PM frako has not yet responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019