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Author Topic:   Birds and Reptiles
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 46 of 135 (598497)
12-31-2010 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
12-31-2010 1:52 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities
Hi, Buz.

Buzsaw writes:

the similarities of modern reptiles and dino reptiles are extremely more numerous than the similarities of birds and dinos...

Not true.

Birds and dinosaurs share similar limb configurations, postures, feathers, jaws, wrist bones, scales and scutes, etc.

The only thing I can think of in which dinosaurs are more like modern reptiles than birds is that they have long tails. Everything else that dinosaurs and modern reptiles have in common, they also have in common with birds.

Maybe somebody else knows something that I don't, so I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable than myself to correct me if I need correction.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 12-31-2010 1:52 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 12-31-2010 9:02 PM Blue Jay has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1804
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 47 of 135 (598498)
12-31-2010 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Blue Jay
12-31-2010 3:46 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities
"SM" stands for "scientific method

Oh I know what it means and more importantly what the scientific method actually is, I just don't think Buz does.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 3:46 PM Blue Jay has acknowledged this reply

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 135 (598499)
12-31-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by DrJones*
12-31-2010 1:58 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities
Dr Jones writes:

Buz, what is "the SM"?

Thanks for the heads up, Dr Jones. It was a poor choice of word terminology on my part. I have edited a correction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by DrJones*, posted 12-31-2010 1:58 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 49 of 135 (598500)
12-31-2010 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
12-31-2010 1:52 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities
quote:

There you go, obfuscating my position. I've explained this before more than once, but I'll explain it again.

No Buz, pointing out facts that you want swept under the carpet is NOT "obfuscating" your position.

quote:

Dinos are reptiles.
Snakes are reptiles.
Serpents are reptiles

Since serpents ARE snakes this is needlessly redundant. It is also not nearly sufficient to show that snakes are descended from dinosaurs.

quote:

The only word in the manuscripts of the Genesis record for snakes, dinos, lizards, iguanas, alligators etc is serpent.

By which you mean that the Eden myth only mentions serpents. That is not significant evidence.

quote:

Bottom line; the similarities of modern reptiles and dino reptiles are extremely more numerous than the similarities of birds and dinos, yet the SM allows for the less similar but disallows the more similar.

Of course this assertion is false, as has already been shown in discussion here. You might like to look at this Message 145 for instance.

quote:

This is why the less likely hypotheses are funded, taught, peered and researched in the science arena.

Obvious rubbish [i]shouldn't[/i[] get funded. Haven't you noticed that ALL your arguments for your hypothesis rely on a very superficial examination of the evidence and that serious problems appear when the evidence is looked at in more detail ? Think that over - the evidence you put forward in SUPPORT of your hypothesis is, in reality, against it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 12-31-2010 1:52 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 135 (598522)
12-31-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Blue Jay
12-31-2010 3:49 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
Bluejay writes:

Birds and dinosaurs share similar limb configurations, postures, feathers, jaws, wrist bones, scales and scutes, etc.

The only thing I can think of in which dinosaurs are more like modern reptiles than birds is that they have long tails. Everything else that dinosaurs and modern reptiles have in common, they also have in common with birds.

Interestingly, the first thing that came to your mind is what the Genesis record predicted, the long legged reptilian i.e. serpent being cursed to have it's descendants being hatched with shorter legs rendering it a belly creeping creature. (Belly being relative to length of legs and/or no legs.

  1. Dinos and most modern reptiles are oviparous, producing eggs that hatch outside of the body.

  2. Crocodiles have similar abdominal ribs to dinosaurs.

  3. no fur

  4. both reptiles whereas birds are not.

  5. both land dwellers, unlike birds

    Imo, dinos were the fall guy, so to speak for the ancestors of birds for lack of something else in that conventional palentologists (counter to the Genesis record) predated reptiles before dinos.

  6. small similar appearing heads and swishy tails, unlike birds.

    Biblical record cites curse as reason for leg differences and size

  7. Both cohabited whereas birds did not, according to conventional paleontology but not according to the Genesis record.

  8. Both had teeth and more similar bone structures unlike birds

  9. Overall appearance of lizards, crocks, iguanas, etc more resemble dinos than birds.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 3:49 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 11:35 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2010 11:45 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 51 of 135 (598528)
12-31-2010 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Blue Jay
12-31-2010 3:39 PM


Re: Look at the feets!
Bluejay writes:

This seems highly unrealistic. Scutes clearly predate feathers in the fossil record. I think they even predate the diapsid-synapsid split, so it seems unlikely that feathers predated that.

I'm also highly skeptical because apparently none of the cited work by Alan Brush demonstrating that scutes happen when feather development is suppressed were published or peer-reviewed.

Also, I'm not sure that a developmental pathway defaulting to a certain end product is really evidence that that end product is the primitive condition. I'm no geneticist, though, so I could be wrong.

well, i knew someone would bring up the potential shortcomings of this idea. thanks for that. yes, i really don't know, but it's an interesting idea.

I could be convinced, however, if they could cause crocodilians to develop feathers instead of scutes using the same techniques.

yes, that would pretty cool. the question -- and i'd like to know too -- is whether or not crocodilian scutes are related to avian/dinosaurian scutes. it's entirely possible the avian ones are merely secondary adaptions and not actually related to scutes in other archosaurs at all. it's also possible that this particular gene was in place before the evolution of feathers, the secondary modifications of it is what caused microraptor to grow feathers on its feet.

i think it's an interesting area of study, and needs some more examination. in any case, the ornithiscian with proto-feathers certainly pushes feathers further down the family tree.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 3:39 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 52 of 135 (598535)
12-31-2010 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
12-31-2010 9:02 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
Hi, Buzsaw.

Buzsaw writes:

Dinos and most modern reptiles are oviparous, producing eggs that hatch outside of the body.

All birds are oviparous too.

Buzsaw writes:

Crocodiles have similar abdominal ribs to dinosaurs.

And crocodiles are also more related to birds than they are to other reptiles.

Buzsaw writes:

no fur

Birds also have no fur.

Buzsaw writes:

both reptiles whereas birds are not.

Birds are reptiles. And, even if they're not, you can't use the point you're trying to prove as evidence for the point you're trying to prove.

Buzsaw writes:

both land dwellers, unlike birds

Birds are also land-dwellers.

Buzsaw writes:

Imo, dinos were the fall guy, so to speak for the ancestors of birds for lack of something else in that conventional palentologists (counter to the Genesis record) predated reptiles before dinos.

So, paleontologists say dinosaurs are the ancestors of birds because... they are the best candidate they can find?

And this is your argument for why dinosaurs are not the ancestors of birds?

[qs=Buzsaw]small similar appearing heads and swishy tails, unlike birds.

If you look closer at the actual shape of the skulls bones, dinosaur skull bones more closely resemble bird skull bones than lizard skull bones. Also, there are dinosaurs that have beaks!

Buzsaw writes:

Biblical record cites curse as reason for leg differences and size

Scientific record cites evolution as reason for leg differences and size.

Buzsaw writes:

Both cohabited whereas birds did not, according to conventional paleontology but not according to the Genesis record.

What? You mean reptiles and dinosaurs lived at the same time and place, whereas birds didn't?

If so, you're wrong.

Buzsaw writes:

Both had teeth and more similar bone structures unlike birds

There used to be many birds with teeth, the last of which survived until 3.5 million years ago, during the Ice Ages. And, there are dinosaurs that have no teeth! And, snakes have very different teeth from dinosaurs and crocodiles!

And, that part about similar bone structures is wrong.

Buzsaw writes:

Overall appearance of lizards, crocks, iguanas, etc more resemble dinos than birds.

Nonsense. Theropod dinosaurs looked a lot more like birds than like iguanas: they had feathers and stood up on two legs, had long necks and even incubated their eggs like birds.

-----

This stuff is all absurd, Buzsaw! What little of it is true doesn't show that dinosaurs are more like other reptiles than they are like birds.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 12-31-2010 9:02 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 12:29 AM Blue Jay has responded
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 01-01-2011 9:05 AM Blue Jay has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 53 of 135 (598536)
12-31-2010 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
12-31-2010 9:02 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
Dinos and most modern reptiles are oviparous, producing eggs that hatch outside of the body.

Like birds.

Crocodiles have similar abdominal ribs to dinosaurs.

Like Archaeopteryx.

no fur

Like birds.

both reptiles whereas birds are not.

That's debatable.

both land dwellers, unlike birds

Scuse me, this guy would like a word.

small similar appearing heads and swishy tails

Like Archaeopteryx.

See this?

The one on top is a dinosaur. The middle one is Archaeopteryx.

Note the similarities.

And here's the skull of a snake

Both cohabited whereas birds did not, according to conventional paleontology

Wrong. Conventional paleontology puts the first birds in the Jurassic period.

Both had teeth and more similar bone structures

Like Archaeopteryx.

Overall appearance of lizards, crocks, iguanas, etc more resemble dinos than birds.

* cough *

Archeopteryx.

Left, a dinosaur. Center, Archaeopteryx.

And here's the skeleton of a crocodile.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 12-31-2010 9:02 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 54 of 135 (598537)
01-01-2011 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
12-31-2010 9:02 PM


dinosaurs: more like birds than like crocodiles
pisture post!

1. Dinos and most modern reptiles are oviparous, producing eggs that hatch outside of the body.


crocodile egg


chicken egg

most reptiles are oviparous. most dinosaurs are oviparous. all birds are oviparous.

2. Crocodiles have similar abdominal ribs to dinosaurs.


crocodile gastralia


tyrannosaurus rex gastralia (from sue)

note: it's hard to see in the picture, i can't find an especially good depiction of it easily, but theropod gastralia interlock, and are much more diminutive than the giant plates of a crocodile. it should be noted that true gastralia are not typically found in reptiles -- except crocodiles.

3. no fur


sinosauropteryx "fur"

4. both reptiles whereas birds are not.

dinosaurs are reptiles much in the same way you're an amphibian. you're not cold blooded (i think), you don't go through any metamorposis, and you were born live. you don't need to be around water to keep your skin hydrated. similarly, dinosaurs are endothermic, covered in feathers, stand upright, etc. they don't hug the ground for warmth like a reptile -- they're the reason that "reptile" is not longer a scientifically recognized clade. they make "reptilia" paraphyletic. and your argument is just a little silly anyways, see as how birds are a subgroup of dinosaurs. if B is a subgroup of A, and C is a subgroup of B, C is a subgroup of A.

5. both land dwellers, unlike birds


ostriches in israel

all birds are ground-based. some live in trees. some on glaciers. none remain in the air constantly. some can't even fly.

6. small similar appearing heads and swishy tails, unlike birds.


dromaeosaur zygopophyses

while the dromaeosaurid (that includes archie's) tail is still somewhat flexible, it wouldn't have been very "swishy". i know they show the "velociraptors" in jurassic park swishing their tails about, but they would not have been able to do this. above is a photo of what those tails actually looked like: their pre- and postzygoopophyses are extended for several vertebrae, making their tails somewhat stiff, particularly towards the end.

compare this to the tip of a crocodile's tail, which must move readily side-to-side to power their travel through water, and to a bird's tail, in which the end is totally fused into a pygostyle. the only similarity to the crocodile's in length, and that gets drastically shorter in cretaceous birds, and not all at once.


tail length in dinosaurs/birds

as for heads,


saltwater crocodile skull


velociraptor skull


terror bird skull

crocodiles have vertically flattened skulls, which are good for lurking just under the water, while still being able to breathe and see above water. dinosaurs and birds have laterally flattened skulls.

7. Both cohabited whereas birds did not, according to conventional paleontology but not according to the Genesis record.

i'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean.

8. Both had teeth and more similar bone structures unlike birds


crocodile sketelon


archaeopteryx


bird

and i'll find you a picture of bone cross-sections, if you really like. birds and dinosaurs often have hollow bones; crocodiles do not.

9. Overall appearance of lizards, crocks, iguanas, etc more resemble dinos than birds.


"green" iguana


american alligator


archaeopteryx


mockingbird

dinosaurs look like what now? now, i know i detailed up above why archaeopteryx is clearly not "just a bird" and is very much a theropod dinosaur. but it's important to note just how much closer dinosaurs are to birds than they are to crocodiles. clearly, they are related to both.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

Edited by arachnophilia, : background color on transparent .png

Edited by arachnophilia, : turns out, the "crocodile bird" is a complete myth.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 12-31-2010 9:02 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-01-2011 2:26 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 55 of 135 (598538)
01-01-2011 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Blue Jay
12-31-2010 11:35 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
Bluejay writes:

Birds are reptiles. And, even if they're not, you can't use the point you're trying to prove as evidence for the point you're trying to prove.

i was less than technical with buz. but i'll point here that the word you're looking for is "sauropsid". crocodiles, dinosaurs, birds, and turtles are sauropsids. "reptilia" is a paraphyletic group which specifically excludes birds by definition, and thanks to the re-organization of the cladistic trees, isn't especially appropriate anymore.


"reptilia" (from wikipedia)

Also, there are dinosaurs that have beaks!

well, ornithischian ones, anyways. i thought about going there, but since their beaks are simply convergent, and they're not especially closely related to the dinosaurs that lead up to birds, i thought it would be a little disingenuous.

Scientific record cites evolution as reason for leg differences and size.

indeed. a crocodile's amrs and legs have a very different function from those of a velociraptor.

What? You mean reptiles and dinosaurs lived at the same time and place, whereas birds didn't?

If so, you're wrong.

if that's what he means, it's quite silly indeed. all three lived in the cretaceous period.

Edited by arachnophilia, : background color on transparent .png image


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 11:35 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Blue Jay, posted 01-02-2011 12:43 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 56 of 135 (598540)
01-01-2011 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by arachnophilia
01-01-2011 12:01 AM


The Crocodile Bird
i'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean. so here's a lovely picture of a bird and a crocodile cohabitating.

To be precise, that's a lovely photoshop of a bird and a crocodile cohabitating. The people who produced it acknowledge that it's a "digital reconstruction".

As a matter of fact, the crocodile bird does not exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 12:01 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 50 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 57 of 135 (598541)
01-01-2011 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dr Adequate
01-01-2011 2:26 AM


Re: The Crocodile Bird
ha! very nice. that'll teach me not to track down an original source for an image, and read the page. thanks for that correction, learned something new today.

anyways, in that case, i'll go ahead and take that image down. it was pretty pointless anyways -- i think we all know that birds and crocodiles are both currently alive and share habitats, and that at one time, birds, non-avian dinosaurs, and crocodiles were all alive and shared habitats.

i still have no idea what the heck buz's comment was supposed to mean, anyways.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-01-2011 2:26 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 135 (598547)
01-01-2011 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Blue Jay
12-31-2010 11:35 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
Bluejay writes:

Birds are reptiles.

Bluejay, by and large (I say by and large), I maintain that my points are valid. That one dino is considered bird doesn't mean birds are generally considered reptiles. More objectively, from what I've read, the consensus is that they descended from dinos.

My position that the Biblical record is correct would require many adjustments to the changed physique such as the flattened croc and gater heads, the rear claw in the foot for grasping smaller things, the leg structure, etc.

It would have been a major adjustment. Conclusion: there are not more similarities, by and large, of birds/dinos than reptiles/dinos. It's all assumed to accomodate evolution.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 11:35 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 01-01-2011 9:36 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-01-2011 9:39 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 61 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 3:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 71 by Blue Jay, posted 01-02-2011 1:09 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 59 of 135 (598549)
01-01-2011 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
01-01-2011 9:05 AM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
Buz, so far as I can see the only point you've made that is really true is that the old Linnaean taxonomy didn't consider birds to be reptiles - you're not even really correct about what the Bible says . But that's more a historical accident - Linnaeus didn't really know about dinosaurs, and if he'd known what we know now things would be different.

As for the rest of your post it seems that you assume that all dinosaurs were like crocodiles and therefore the actual similarities between real dinosaurs and birds are themselves assumptions. That just doesn't make sense. The similarities are found in real dinosaur remains and if those don't fit your idea of what a dinosaur is like, you're the one making false assumptions.

Really all you seem to be doing is whining that scientists look at the evidence instead of unquestioningly accepting your opinions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 01-01-2011 9:05 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 60 of 135 (598550)
01-01-2011 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
01-01-2011 9:05 AM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
It would have been a major adjustment. Conclusion: there are not more similarities, by and large, of birds/dinos than reptiles/dinos.

Did you not see the pictures?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 01-01-2011 9:05 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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