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Author Topic:   Birds and Reptiles
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 121 of 135 (611961)
04-12-2011 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:54 AM


Re: Unnatural history
Hi, Robert.

Robert Byers writes:

Observe with ALL attention without preconceived ideas.
In fact i suggest one observe on youtube the marsupial wolf and see all the likeness to a regular dog. Moving or still pictures.

Right. So, like I just said, you advocate looking at vague, overall "likeness" and ignoring in-depth detail. Or, as I shall now rephrase it, you advocate watching YouTube videos instead of running cladistic analyses with codified characters.

-----

Robert Byers writes:

The appearance of a creature is due to profound anatomical structures.

And, "profound anatomical structures" are due to assemblages of smaller parts. A pile of pebbles can look a lot like a pile of beans. But, relatedness is more than just similarity of the overall "pile": it's similarity of the parts from which the overall pile is generated. Thylacine parts are essentially marsupial parts assembled into a dog-like pile.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 1:54 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
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Boof
Member (Idle past 1363 days)
Posts: 97
From: Australia
Joined: 08-02-2010


Message 122 of 135 (612036)
04-12-2011 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:32 AM


Wierd marsupials
Robert Byers writes:

In fact i wrote a essay called "Post flood Marsupial Migration explained" by Robert Byers. Just google.
I know my issue.

...

The like traits are so alike they MUST invoke convergent evolution to explain them. The few traits in common deal with minor points of reproduction. A few other minor details of the brain, teeth, etc. Yet to see this defining the marsupials into a group means to ignore the fantastic number of traits that would simply put them into regular groups of creatures.

I read your essay Robert, with some difficulty. You seem to insinuate in it, and in your posts on this thread, that the marsupials in Australia are all just minor modifications of some 'kinds' of ‘similar shaped’ placental mammals. But I note you seem to focus your comments on marsupials with the most similar traits to extant placental mammals (eg marsupial moles, thylacine, etc). Just for laughs I'd be interested to know what 'kinds' of placental mammals you think that kangaroos, platypus, possums, wombats and koalas all belong with.

Edited by Boof, : Change subtitle


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 123 of 135 (612037)
04-12-2011 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 1:32 AM


Re: Unnatural history
Robert Byers writes:

The like traits are so alike they MUST invoke convergent evolution to explain them. The few traits in common deal with minor points of reproduction. A few other minor details of the brain, teeth, etc. Yet to see this defining the marsupials into a group means to ignore the fantastic number of traits that would simply put them into regular groups of creatures.

you might want to google "kitzmiller marsupial slides". i'd post them as an argument, but they'd be off topic here. perhaps you should start a new topic.


אָרַח

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 124 of 135 (612171)
04-13-2011 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Boof
04-12-2011 7:26 PM


Re: Wierd marsupials
Hi, Boof.

Boof writes:

Just for laughs I'd be interested to know what 'kinds' of placental mammals you think that kangaroos, platypus, possums, wombats and koalas all belong with.

They're all their own "kinds" of placental mammals, of course.

For some inane reason, Robert has decided that letting marsupials be related to one another would be admitting the veracity of evolution, while having them be related instead to similar placental mammals would not.

And, by the way, platypus aren't marsupials; they're monotremes.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 125 of 135 (612186)
04-13-2011 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Blue Jay
04-13-2011 5:02 PM


Re: Wierd marsupials
Bluejay writes:

For some inane reason, Robert has decided that letting marsupials be related to one another would be admitting the veracity of evolution, while having them be related instead to similar placental mammals would not.

that's not too far off base, btw.

convergently evolving a whole host of distinct marsupial features, across many different families of placentals, all of which come out to be precisely homologous to each other... well, it would be hard to accept that and evolution.

also, can we have a marsupial thread? none of this really belongs in a thread about birds and reptiles.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3264 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 126 of 135 (612372)
04-15-2011 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Blue Jay
04-12-2011 12:47 PM


Re: Unnatural history
Did you watch the moving marsupial wolf?
I say its just a wolf with a few minor details of difference. The same details of all the creatures in the area. There are marsupial lions, moles, rats, tapirs, bears and so on.
To have something look like something else requires fantastic conformity of thousands of twists and turns of anatomy.
The classification system has simply been incompetent and likewise for many orders of creatures in the fossil record.

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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3264 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 127 of 135 (612373)
04-15-2011 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Boof
04-12-2011 7:26 PM


Re: Wierd marsupials
Boof writes:

Robert Byers writes:

In fact i wrote a essay called "Post flood Marsupial Migration explained" by Robert Byers. Just google.
I know my issue.

...

The like traits are so alike they MUST invoke convergent evolution to explain them. The few traits in common deal with minor points of reproduction. A few other minor details of the brain, teeth, etc. Yet to see this defining the marsupials into a group means to ignore the fantastic number of traits that would simply put them into regular groups of creatures.

I read your essay Robert, with some difficulty. You seem to insinuate in it, and in your posts on this thread, that the marsupials in Australia are all just minor modifications of some 'kinds' of ‘similar shaped’ placental mammals. But I note you seem to focus your comments on marsupials with the most similar traits to extant placental mammals (eg marsupial moles, thylacine, etc). Just for laughs I'd be interested to know what 'kinds' of placental mammals you think that kangaroos, platypus, possums, wombats and koalas all belong with.

Making lists doesn't matter. The creatures that are alike tell the tale. anyways the creatures in australia would just be the same with creatures everywhere filling the post flood planet at that time. tHe fossil record is full of creatures that have gone extinct all over the planet since the biblical flood by this creationist reckoning.

Australia is a window into the whole world at that time.


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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 128 of 135 (612378)
04-15-2011 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Robert Byers
04-15-2011 2:00 AM


Re: Wierd marsupials
robert, can you please propose a marsupial thread, where you elaborate on your position regarding the relationship between placental and marsupial mammals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Robert Byers, posted 04-15-2011 2:00 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12719
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 129 of 135 (612401)
04-15-2011 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Robert Byers
04-15-2011 2:00 AM


Re: Wierd marsupials
Hi Robert,

This isn't the right thread for a discussion on marsupials. Could you boil down your web article on marsupials into a thread proposal over at Proposed New Topics? Thanks!

Edited by Admin, : is => isn't


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3264 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 130 of 135 (612917)
04-20-2011 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Admin
04-15-2011 8:11 AM


Re: Wierd marsupials
Admin writes:

Hi Robert,

This isn't the right thread for a discussion on marsupials. Could you boil down your web article on marsupials into a thread proposal over at Proposed New Topics? Thanks!

Agreed but I need time right now.
it is off thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Admin, posted 04-15-2011 8:11 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2037
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 131 of 135 (669848)
08-03-2012 11:26 PM


Is this right thread for this link I found on facebook:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...-reptileevolution-com

???


- xongsmith, 5.7d

  
MiguelG
Member (Idle past 872 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


(1)
Message 132 of 135 (677854)
11-01-2012 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by arachnophilia
01-01-2011 9:07 PM


Possibly off-topic : Dinosauria On-line defunct
My apologies to the Mods & posters but I wanted to spare you all the initial problems and frustrations I had when chasing up defunct links.

Arachnophilia kindly linked to an article by Greg Paul on Feduccia's bird-digit paper (Message 64). This was hosted originally on the Dinosauria on-line website which is now dewfunct.

However all is not lost.

This paper and the rest of the useful articles on the old Dinosauria pages can still be found at the Wayback Machine which is hosted on the Internet Archive (http://archive.org/index.php).

Dinosauria.com can be found here :

http://web.archive.org/web/20110611055811/http://www.dinosauria.com/

And Paul's original comments can be found here :

http://web.archive.org/web/20110611055811/http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/archie/paulfed.html

I leave it to the Mods to decide where this info can best serve the forums users.

Regards to all.

Edited by MiguelG, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 9:07 PM arachnophilia has responded

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pandion
Member (Idle past 1896 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 133 of 135 (677857)
11-02-2012 3:12 AM


I've got pictures
I have several nice pictures of the Thermopolis Archaeopteryx specimen. I took them when it was displayed at the Houston Museum of Natural Science.

I also have a really good reproduction of the Berlin Archaeopteryx specimen.


  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 134 of 135 (677885)
11-02-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by MiguelG
11-01-2012 11:49 PM


Re: Possibly off-topic : Dinosauria On-line defunct
it saddens me to know that dinosauria went down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by MiguelG, posted 11-01-2012 11:49 PM MiguelG has not yet responded

  
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 1744 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


(2)
Message 135 of 135 (717873)
02-02-2014 1:34 PM


bird like respiratory systems in dinosaurs
This looks like the right thread for this information I stumbled upon.

quote:
Bird-like respiratory systems in dinosaurs -- A recent analysis showing the presence of a very bird-like pulmonary, or lung, system in predatory dinosaurs provides more evidence of an evolutionary link between dinosaurs and birds. First proposed in the late 19th century, theories about the animals' relatedness enjoyed brief support but soon fell out of favor. Evidence gathered over the past 30 years has breathed new life into the hypothesis. O'Connor and Claessens (2005) make clear the unique pulmonary system of birds, which has fixed lungs and air sacs that penetrate the skeleton, has an older history than previously realized. It also dispels the theory that predatory dinosaurs had lungs similar to living reptiles, like crocodiles.

quote:
Some hollow bones are providing solid new evidence of how birds evolved from dinosaurs.

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html


  
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