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Author Topic:   Cause of Civil War
Phat
Member
Posts: 18430
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 169 of 193 (890781)
01-10-2022 3:58 PM


Could it happen again?
Imagine Another Civil War But This Time In Every State This article on NPR...I will comment later as I need to go to work. I won't leave you guys with a bare link, I promise.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 01-10-2022 6:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18430
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 171 of 193 (890855)
01-11-2022 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Tangle
01-10-2022 6:15 PM


Re: Could it happen again?
Tangled One writes:
But that's exactly what you did!!!
Oh stop! I told you I had to go to work.
This article is interesting, however. I would not be in favor of a war simply because we are divided as a nation, but I could see issues that I feel strongly about causing an uproar.
quote:
Business Insider published a poll in October 2020 saying a majority of Americans believed the U.S. was already in the midst of a "cold" civil war. Then last fall, the University of Virginia Center for Politics released a poll finding that a majority of people who had voted to reelect former President Donald Trump in 2020 now wanted their state to secede from the Union.
The UVA data also showed a stunning 41% of those who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 also said it might now be "time to split the country."
Researchers have found such downbeat assessments of America's democracy are especially salient among the young. Last month, the Institute of Politics at Harvard's Kennedy School published a poll that found half of voting-age Americans under 30 thought our democracy was "in trouble" or "failing." A third also said they expected there to be "a civil war" within their lifetimes. And a quarter thought at least one state would secede.

Lets take the reparations issue being discussed as EvC's liberal majority dogpiles me.
ringo writes:
If the government decides to pay the collective "white debt" then it's your taxes that will pay it.
Fortunately the government rarely makes unanimous uncontested decisions. Some of us believe that the government has no right or mandate to legislate morality. I could see a civil war ignite over just this one issue.
  • My grandfather never owned slaves.
  • White people can not be held collectively responsible for a crime that not all of them participated in. Conversely, not all black people should benefit when only some were wronged.
  • Liberals try and rectify ancient wrongs because they want to expand their voting base and ideological movement. A Civil War may be needed to stop the self-righteous thirst for power that the Left seems to think it has a right to.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 170 by Tangle, posted 01-10-2022 6:15 PM Tangle has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 172 by nwr, posted 01-11-2022 9:30 AM Phat has replied
     Message 173 by ringo, posted 01-11-2022 11:22 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18430
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 174 of 193 (890878)
    01-11-2022 11:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
    01-11-2022 11:22 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    since when does anyone get to tell me what the right thing is, apart from the Lord Himself? Certainly not a bunch of atheists or "woke" people.
    I'm not selfish. I'm just practical. Perhaps you need to listen to folks tell YOU what the right thing is for ALL of us and not what and whom you define it as.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by ringo, posted 01-11-2022 11:22 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 176 by dwise1, posted 01-11-2022 11:52 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 177 by ringo, posted 01-11-2022 11:56 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18430
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 175 of 193 (890879)
    01-11-2022 11:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 172 by nwr
    01-11-2022 9:30 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    Actually, your argument makes sense. Some form of reparations should be paid. My point, however, is that if one looks around globally, there are hundreds of cases of a legitimate claim to reparations. Where does one begin and when should we stop? How in fact can such reparations even be honestly calculated?
    Also, my argument gets defensive when I imagine it as solely a liberal agenda. The final agreement needs to be bi-partisan. Otherwise, it will go nowhere.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by nwr, posted 01-11-2022 9:30 AM nwr has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 178 by ringo, posted 01-11-2022 12:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 179 by nwr, posted 01-11-2022 12:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 180 by dwise1, posted 01-11-2022 12:16 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 181 by jar, posted 01-11-2022 12:18 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 184 by xongsmith, posted 01-11-2022 2:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18430
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 191 of 193 (890959)
    01-12-2022 4:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 189 by Theodoric
    01-12-2022 9:57 AM


    Topic: Causes Of The Civil War
    Im glad to see you back! I was concerned that you had caught COVID or something.
    The only reason I used this topic is the heading: Causes Of Civil War. The news article on N.P.R. mentioned the possibility of a new one. Many of the underlying issues have similarities. Any succession would again bring up the issue of States Rights.
    Attention Everyone. This topic, started by Theodoric a few years ago, is about the US Civil War in 1865.
    Theodoric writes:
    Subbie and Dr A posted this info in the quote thread already. I hope they do not mind that I repost it here.
    Message 50
    In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
    - State of Mississippi in its Declaration of Causes of Secession
    The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."
    - Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy
    That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.
    (Emphasis in original)
    - State of Texas in its Declaration of Causes of Secession
    Message 81
    Resolved by the general assembly of Virginia [...] That these causes are to be mainly found in the denied equality of the rights of the slaveholder and the non-slaveholder, involved in the proposed partial exclusion of the former from the common territories--in the breach of the plighted faith of some of the non-slaveholding states and people, by acts and laws designed to obstruct the recovery of escaped slaves--by avowed designs to shape the policy, and use the machinery of the general government so as to effect, by indirection, the extinction of slavery, which it is conceded that government cannot rightfully or directly interfere with--and by other acts importing a denial of our rights of property in our slaves, and of our exclusive control over slavery as a domestic institution--and these are causes of complaint common to all the slaveholding people and states, and are in plain violation of the spirit and terms of our compact of union. --- Journal of the House of Delegates of the State of Virginia, for the Extra Session, 1861.
    The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the federal government having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the southern, slaveholding states: --- Virginia Ordinance of Secession
    quote:
    The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.
    Source
    Lee to Mrs. Lee, Dec. 27, 1856; Lee MSS., Library of Congress.
    So here is some evidence to counter your assertions. Now, are you ready to refute it?
    Artemis Entreri was Theodoric's uninformed opponent called out to defend his assertions.
    But Theo nailed down a case early on.
    quote:
    Slavery was an integral part of the reasons for the war. Was it the sole reason? No. But the economic reasons for the war were driven by slavery. States rights is just a smokescreen to hide slavery as a primary cause.(...)The war from the union side was to preserve the union. The war from the confederate side was to dissolve the union.
    quote:
    So you agree that at the time they had no legitimate reason for seceding on the states rights issue. This again shows that the states right argument is just a thinly veiled covering of slavery being the issue. Is it much different than ID and Creationism?
    This should be 1865.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 189 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2022 9:57 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 192 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2022 4:59 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18430
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 193 of 193 (890963)
    01-12-2022 5:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 192 by Theodoric
    01-12-2022 4:59 PM


    Re: Topic: Causes Of The Civil War
    Agreed.
    My New Topic is here.
    Could Trump Instigate A New Civil War?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2022 4:59 PM Theodoric has not replied

      
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