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Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
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Author | Topic: Cause of Civil War | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Hello,
I find both america's civil war and this thread fascinating (one of my all-time favorite on the forum). Thanks to all who contributed. I saw the movie "Lincoln" over the weekend. Just hoping somebody wants to add to this thread with anything they seen in the movie: False history, missed points, Speilberg's angle, accurate aspects? thanks
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Haven't had to chance to see it yet. Looking forward to it. Not expecting it to thrill me on a historical level, but sounds like as cinematography it is excellent.
Ta-Nehisi Coates at The Atlantic has been discussing the movie quite a bit.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Thanks for the Linc. . . , errr, 'link' Theo.
I've been reading some reports about the minor historical inaccuracies. I don't think they take away from the movie . . . however I'm looking forward to your thoughts/comments.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Imagine Another Civil War But This Time In Every State This article on NPR...I will comment later as I need to go to work. I won't leave you guys with a bare link, I promise.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: I won't leave you guys with a bare link, I promise. But that's exactly what you did!!!Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangled One writes: Oh stop! I told you I had to go to work. But that's exactly what you did!!! This article is interesting, however. I would not be in favor of a war simply because we are divided as a nation, but I could see issues that I feel strongly about causing an uproar.
quote:Lets take the reparations issue being discussed as EvC's liberal majority dogpiles me. ringo writes: Fortunately the government rarely makes unanimous uncontested decisions. Some of us believe that the government has no right or mandate to legislate morality. I could see a civil war ignite over just this one issue.
If the government decides to pay the collective "white debt" then it's your taxes that will pay it. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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Some of us believe that the government has no right or mandate to legislate morality.
You must live in some alternate reality. I have seen the government legislate policy. I have never seen it legislate morality. Perhaps you do not understand the difference.
My grandfather never owned slaves.
Nor did mine. So what?
White people can not be held collectively responsible for a crime that not all of them participated in.
I agree. But what does that have to do with reparations? Are you saying that if the city make a mistake and accidentally bulldozes your house, then the city would not have to pay you for repairs because the taxpayers were not the ones who made the mistake? That sure seems to be foolish reasoning.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
So what? Fortunately the government rarely makes unanimous uncontested decisions. I said, "IF the government decides to pay the collective "white debt" then it's your taxes that will pay it." You will have the same input you have on every issue - the right to express your opinion, the right to protest the decision, etc. - but you WILL pay for whatever the decision is.
Phat writes:
It isn't about "legislating morality". It's about doing the right thing.
Some of us believe that the government has no right or mandate to legislate morality. Phat writes:
Of course they can. I mentioned that Germany was still paying reparations for WW1 for generations.
White people can not be held collectively responsible for a crime that not all of them participated in. Phat writes:
You have the memory retention of a goldfish. The descendants of the slaves have inherited the disadvantages the same as the descendants of the slave-owners have inherited the advantages. Why don't you stop repeating the same old nonsense and actually THINK about the issue?
Conversely, not all black people should benefit when only some were wronged. Phat writes:
Doing the right thing is not an "ideological movement". Liberals try and rectify ancient wrongs because they want to expand their voting base and ideological movement."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
since when does anyone get to tell me what the right thing is, apart from the Lord Himself? Certainly not a bunch of atheists or "woke" people.
I'm not selfish. I'm just practical. Perhaps you need to listen to folks tell YOU what the right thing is for ALL of us and not what and whom you define it as."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Actually, your argument makes sense. Some form of reparations should be paid. My point, however, is that if one looks around globally, there are hundreds of cases of a legitimate claim to reparations. Where does one begin and when should we stop? How in fact can such reparations even be honestly calculated?
Also, my argument gets defensive when I imagine it as solely a liberal agenda. The final agreement needs to be bi-partisan. Otherwise, it will go nowhere."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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... apart from the Lord Himself? Your "the Lord Himself" has never personally told you anything, regardless of however many voices you have heard in your head. As I seem to recall, you just get "feelings", not voices. Feelings which agree with what you want, which makes your "the Lord Himself" a personal sockpuppet saying what you want it to say. Even when it contradicts what the Bible clearly says that Jesus had clearly taught. The pushback you keep getting is because you claim to follow Jesus and listen to him while at the same time refuse to listen to what Jesus said through the Bible (the basis for that All-Mighty Tradition that you were recently idolizing). ABE: Just because you have an aversion to the word, "woke", is no reason to refuse to wake up to your own hypocrisy. Edited by dwise1, : ABE
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
How can you be so arrogant?
since when does anyone get to tell me what the right thing is, apart from the Lord Himself? Phat writes:
Why don't you present an argument instead of just spitting hatred?
Certainly not a bunch of atheists or "woke" people. Phat writes:
That's exactly what I'm doing. It's pretty universally agreed that paying your debts is the right thing to do. Perhaps you need to listen to folks tell YOU what the right thing is for ALL of us and not what and whom you define it as."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You begin by not arguing against it. You end when the repairs are finished.
Where does one begin and when should we stop? Phat writes:
Don't get ahead of yourself. The beginning of honesty is the realization that the debt should be paid. How in fact can such reparations even be honestly calculated?"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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Where does one begin and when should we stop?
Isn't that what legislative bodies are for?
Also, my argument gets defensive when I imagine it as solely a liberal agenda.
Then maybe you should stop imagining it that way.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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And the issues for which reparations are being called for are by no means limited only to slavery as the discussion here keeps veering towards.
More than a century of domestic terrorism directed against black individuals and communities (including Greenwood District, OK, AKA "The Black Wall Street" 1921, Occee, FL, 1922), imposing poverty through redlining creating ghetti with crumbling infrastructure (lead-tainted water anyone?), lending policies forcing subprime mortgages on blacks and other non-whites keeping those families from generating generational wealth thus leaving them far behind, a plethora of discriminatory laws designed to incarcerate far more blacks (eg, sundown laws making it a crime for them to still be in town or the county after dark, neglecting to step off the sidewalk to make way for whites to go by, using the wrong public facilities or sitting in the wrong seats, etc), Jim Crow laws designed to keep blacks from voting, etc. School to jail disciplinary actions. The current drive across the country by state legislatures to keep blacks from voting, some even going so far as empowering GOP legislatures to throw out election results and replace them with what they want. The very first step in reparations would be to make the states just stop that stupid shit! After that, clean up the mess caused by more than a century of malfeasance. Then work to help the communities recover. Just in case the point wasn't noted, we're not talking about some wrong done in the distant past (a few decades short of two centuries ago) "not by us nor our own personal ancestors" (German immigrants tended strongly to anti-slavery and mine was killed in the infamous raid on the abolitionist town of Lawrence). Rather the point is that the wrong is still being done in the present by us and we are collectively working hard to do far more wrong. Stop that stupid shit! And clean up this mess!
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