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Author Topic:   Cause of Civil War
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1387
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 166 of 193 (683443)
12-10-2012 4:15 PM


"Lincoln"
Hello,

I find both america's civil war and this thread fascinating (one of my all-time favorite on the forum). Thanks to all who contributed.

I saw the movie "Lincoln" over the weekend.

Just hoping somebody wants to add to this thread with anything they seen in the movie: False history, missed points, Speilberg's angle, accurate aspects?

thanks


Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Theodoric, posted 12-10-2012 4:25 PM dronestar has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7149
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 167 of 193 (683446)
12-10-2012 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by dronestar
12-10-2012 4:15 PM


Re: "Lincoln"
Haven't had to chance to see it yet. Looking forward to it. Not expecting it to thrill me on a historical level, but sounds like as cinematography it is excellent.

Ta-Nehisi Coates at The Atlantic has been discussing the movie quite a bit.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by dronestar, posted 12-10-2012 4:15 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by dronestar, posted 12-10-2012 4:34 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1387
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 168 of 193 (683448)
12-10-2012 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Theodoric
12-10-2012 4:25 PM


Re: "Lincoln"
Thanks for the Linc. . . , errr, 'link' Theo.

I've been reading some reports about the minor historical inaccuracies. I don't think they take away from the movie . . . however I'm looking forward to your thoughts/comments.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Theodoric, posted 12-10-2012 4:25 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 169 of 193 (890781)
01-10-2022 3:58 PM


Could it happen again?
Imagine Another Civil War But This Time In Every State This article on NPR...I will comment later as I need to go to work. I won't leave you guys with a bare link, I promise.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 01-10-2022 6:15 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 170 of 193 (890817)
01-10-2022 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Phat
01-10-2022 3:58 PM


Re: Could it happen again?
Phat writes:

I won't leave you guys with a bare link, I promise.

But that's exactly what you did!!!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 01-10-2022 3:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 2:41 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 193 (890855)
01-11-2022 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Tangle
01-10-2022 6:15 PM


Re: Could it happen again?
Tangled One writes:

But that's exactly what you did!!!

Oh stop! I told you I had to go to work.

This article is interesting, however. I would not be in favor of a war simply because we are divided as a nation, but I could see issues that I feel strongly about causing an uproar.

quote:
Business Insider published a poll in October 2020 saying a majority of Americans believed the U.S. was already in the midst of a "cold" civil war. Then last fall, the University of Virginia Center for Politics released a poll finding that a majority of people who had voted to reelect former President Donald Trump in 2020 now wanted their state to secede from the Union.

The UVA data also showed a stunning 41% of those who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 also said it might now be "time to split the country."

Researchers have found such downbeat assessments of America's democracy are especially salient among the young. Last month, the Institute of Politics at Harvard's Kennedy School published a poll that found half of voting-age Americans under 30 thought our democracy was "in trouble" or "failing." A third also said they expected there to be "a civil war" within their lifetimes. And a quarter thought at least one state would secede.


Lets take the reparations issue being discussed as EvC's liberal majority dogpiles me.
ringo writes:

If the government decides to pay the collective "white debt" then it's your taxes that will pay it.

Fortunately the government rarely makes unanimous uncontested decisions. Some of us believe that the government has no right or mandate to legislate morality. I could see a civil war ignite over just this one issue.

  • My grandfather never owned slaves.
  • White people can not be held collectively responsible for a crime that not all of them participated in. Conversely, not all black people should benefit when only some were wronged.
  • Liberals try and rectify ancient wrongs because they want to expand their voting base and ideological movement. A Civil War may be needed to stop the self-righteous thirst for power that the Left seems to think it has a right to.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 170 by Tangle, posted 01-10-2022 6:15 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 172 by nwr, posted 01-11-2022 9:30 AM Phat has responded
     Message 173 by ringo, posted 01-11-2022 11:22 AM Phat has responded

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5887
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 7.9


    (3)
    Message 172 of 193 (890863)
    01-11-2022 9:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
    01-11-2022 2:41 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    Some of us believe that the government has no right or mandate to legislate morality.

    You must live in some alternate reality.

    I have seen the government legislate policy. I have never seen it legislate morality.

    Perhaps you do not understand the difference.

    My grandfather never owned slaves.

    Nor did mine. So what?

    White people can not be held collectively responsible for a crime that not all of them participated in.

    I agree. But what does that have to do with reparations?

    Are you saying that if the city make a mistake and accidentally bulldozes your house, then the city would not have to pay you for repairs because the taxpayers were not the ones who made the mistake? That sure seems to be foolish reasoning.


    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 171 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 2:41 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 175 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:44 AM nwr has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19388
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 6.1


    (1)
    Message 173 of 193 (890877)
    01-11-2022 11:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
    01-11-2022 2:41 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    Phat writes:

    Fortunately the government rarely makes unanimous uncontested decisions.


    So what?

    I said, "IF the government decides to pay the collective "white debt" then it's your taxes that will pay it." You will have the same input you have on every issue - the right to express your opinion, the right to protest the decision, etc. - but you WILL pay for whatever the decision is.

    Phat writes:

    Some of us believe that the government has no right or mandate to legislate morality.


    It isn't about "legislating morality". It's about doing the right thing.

    Phat writes:

    White people can not be held collectively responsible for a crime that not all of them participated in.


    Of course they can. I mentioned that Germany was still paying reparations for WW1 for generations.

    Phat writes:

    Conversely, not all black people should benefit when only some were wronged.


    You have the memory retention of a goldfish. The descendants of the slaves have inherited the disadvantages the same as the descendants of the slave-owners have inherited the advantages. Why don't you stop repeating the same old nonsense and actually THINK about the issue?

    Phat writes:

    Liberals try and rectify ancient wrongs because they want to expand their voting base and ideological movement.


    Doing the right thing is not an "ideological movement".

    "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
    -- Lucky Ned Pepper

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 171 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 2:41 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 174 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:37 AM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15816
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 174 of 193 (890878)
    01-11-2022 11:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
    01-11-2022 11:22 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    since when does anyone get to tell me what the right thing is, apart from the Lord Himself? Certainly not a bunch of atheists or "woke" people.

    I'm not selfish. I'm just practical. Perhaps you need to listen to folks tell YOU what the right thing is for ALL of us and not what and whom you define it as.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by ringo, posted 01-11-2022 11:22 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 176 by dwise1, posted 01-11-2022 11:52 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 177 by ringo, posted 01-11-2022 11:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15816
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 175 of 193 (890879)
    01-11-2022 11:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 172 by nwr
    01-11-2022 9:30 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    Actually, your argument makes sense. Some form of reparations should be paid. My point, however, is that if one looks around globally, there are hundreds of cases of a legitimate claim to reparations. Where does one begin and when should we stop? How in fact can such reparations even be honestly calculated?

    Also, my argument gets defensive when I imagine it as solely a liberal agenda. The final agreement needs to be bi-partisan. Otherwise, it will go nowhere.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by nwr, posted 01-11-2022 9:30 AM nwr has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 178 by ringo, posted 01-11-2022 12:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 179 by nwr, posted 01-11-2022 12:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 180 by dwise1, posted 01-11-2022 12:16 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 181 by jar, posted 01-11-2022 12:18 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 184 by xongsmith, posted 01-11-2022 2:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 4818
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 7.0


    (2)
    Message 176 of 193 (890880)
    01-11-2022 11:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
    01-11-2022 11:37 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    ... apart from the Lord Himself?

    Your "the Lord Himself" has never personally told you anything, regardless of however many voices you have heard in your head. As I seem to recall, you just get "feelings", not voices. Feelings which agree with what you want, which makes your "the Lord Himself" a personal sockpuppet saying what you want it to say. Even when it contradicts what the Bible clearly says that Jesus had clearly taught.

    The pushback you keep getting is because you claim to follow Jesus and listen to him while at the same time refuse to listen to what Jesus said through the Bible (the basis for that All-Mighty Tradition that you were recently idolizing).

     
    ABE:
    Just because you have an aversion to the word, "woke", is no reason to refuse to wake up to your own hypocrisy.

    Edited by dwise1, : ABE


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 174 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19388
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 6.1


    (2)
    Message 177 of 193 (890881)
    01-11-2022 11:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
    01-11-2022 11:37 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    Phat writes:

    since when does anyone get to tell me what the right thing is, apart from the Lord Himself?


    How can you be so arrogant?

    Phat writes:

    Certainly not a bunch of atheists or "woke" people.


    Why don't you present an argument instead of just spitting hatred?

    Phat writes:

    Perhaps you need to listen to folks tell YOU what the right thing is for ALL of us and not what and whom you define it as.


    That's exactly what I'm doing. It's pretty universally agreed that paying your debts is the right thing to do.

    "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
    -- Lucky Ned Pepper

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 174 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19388
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 6.1


    (2)
    Message 178 of 193 (890882)
    01-11-2022 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
    01-11-2022 11:44 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    Phat writes:

    Where does one begin and when should we stop?


    You begin by not arguing against it. You end when the repairs are finished.

    Phat writes:

    How in fact can such reparations even be honestly calculated?


    Don't get ahead of yourself. The beginning of honesty is the realization that the debt should be paid.

    "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
    -- Lucky Ned Pepper

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 175 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5887
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 7.9


    (2)
    Message 179 of 193 (890883)
    01-11-2022 12:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
    01-11-2022 11:44 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    Where does one begin and when should we stop?

    Isn't that what legislative bodies are for?

    Also, my argument gets defensive when I imagine it as solely a liberal agenda.

    Then maybe you should stop imagining it that way.

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 175 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 4818
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 7.0


    (5)
    Message 180 of 193 (890884)
    01-11-2022 12:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
    01-11-2022 11:44 AM


    Re: Could it happen again?
    And the issues for which reparations are being called for are by no means limited only to slavery as the discussion here keeps veering towards.

    More than a century of domestic terrorism directed against black individuals and communities (including Greenwood District, OK, AKA "The Black Wall Street" 1921, Occee, FL, 1922), imposing poverty through redlining creating ghetti with crumbling infrastructure (lead-tainted water anyone?), lending policies forcing subprime mortgages on blacks and other non-whites keeping those families from generating generational wealth thus leaving them far behind, a plethora of discriminatory laws designed to incarcerate far more blacks (eg, sundown laws making it a crime for them to still be in town or the county after dark, neglecting to step off the sidewalk to make way for whites to go by, using the wrong public facilities or sitting in the wrong seats, etc), Jim Crow laws designed to keep blacks from voting, etc. School to jail disciplinary actions. The current drive across the country by state legislatures to keep blacks from voting, some even going so far as empowering GOP legislatures to throw out election results and replace them with what they want.

    The very first step in reparations would be to make the states just stop that stupid shit! After that, clean up the mess caused by more than a century of malfeasance. Then work to help the communities recover.

    Just in case the point wasn't noted, we're not talking about some wrong done in the distant past (a few decades short of two centuries ago) "not by us nor our own personal ancestors" (German immigrants tended strongly to anti-slavery and mine was killed in the infamous raid on the abolitionist town of Lawrence). Rather the point is that the wrong is still being done in the present by us and we are collectively working hard to do far more wrong. Stop that stupid shit! And clean up this mess!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 175 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:44 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
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