Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9057 total)
133 online now:
jar, nwr, Percy (Admin), Tanypteryx (4 members, 129 visitors)
Newest Member: drlove
Post Volume: Total: 889,897 Year: 1,009/6,534 Month: 1,009/682 Week: 62/182 Day: 7/29 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Cause of Civil War
jar
Member
Posts: 33657
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


(6)
Message 181 of 193 (890886)
01-11-2022 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
01-11-2022 11:44 AM


Where to begin and when to end?
Phat writes:

My point, however, is that if one looks around globally, there are hundreds of cases of a legitimate claim to reparations. Where does one begin and when should we stop? How in fact can such reparations even be honestly calculated?

We are in the US and so we should begin with those instances where the US treated people unfairly.

Remember, there are three legs to the Supreme Laws of the land, Legislation, decision by the Supreme Court of the US and TREATIES.

What we commit to in treaties is absolute, we are legally and morally obligated to live up to the terms of the treaties.

And not a single US treaty with the Native American or with the Kingdom of Hawaii has been honored fully.

Those are where we need to begin.

Next, we should look at the instances of general harm, slavery, repression, denial of rights to people of color that was the hallmark of the US policy for hundreds of years.

And honestly, we should NEVER stop.

We need to constantly and honestly examine the behavior and policies of the US, acknowledge when they have done harm and are evil, repent such errors, try to make amends and sincerely try not to continue making the same errors.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:44 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2022 12:25 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 183 by nwr, posted 01-11-2022 1:33 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 185 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-12-2022 1:38 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7148
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 182 of 193 (890888)
01-11-2022 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
01-11-2022 12:18 PM


Re: Where to begin and when to end?
Well said. Huge kudos for this post.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 01-11-2022 12:18 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-12-2022 2:06 AM Theodoric has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5887
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 183 of 193 (890899)
01-11-2022 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
01-11-2022 12:18 PM


Re: Where to begin and when to end?
We need to constantly and honestly examine the behavior and policies of the US, acknowledge when they have done harm and are evil, repent such errors, try to make amends and sincerely try not to continue making the same errors.

Absolutely agree. And this is Christianity.

It is sad that so many of the people who claim to be Christian are failing at Christianity 101.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 01-11-2022 12:18 PM jar has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2137
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 7.5


(1)
Message 184 of 193 (890900)
01-11-2022 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
01-11-2022 11:44 AM


Re: Could it happen again?
Phat writes
My point, however, is that if one looks around globally, there are hundreds of cases of a legitimate claim to reparations.

I would say that there are at least a BILLION legitimate cases, globally.

But let's just address the USA, and say that your look-around is woefully shallow and undercounted, even just in Colorado.


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 01-11-2022 11:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 185 of 193 (890925)
01-12-2022 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
01-11-2022 12:18 PM


Re: Where to begin and when to end?
God, I agree with you Jar. Honestly.

Talk real issues, not dangerous fascist crap.

(The FBI & the nation is almost destroyed because of your war against Trump. Defeat the Democratic party. Back down from fascism! Shut up, idiot.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 01-11-2022 12:18 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by kjsimons, posted 01-12-2022 7:52 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 186 of 193 (890926)
01-12-2022 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Theodoric
01-11-2022 12:25 PM


Re: Where to begin and when to end?
You really need to be more pragmatic.

I just talked to friend of mine, from old, and they think the FBI is about to suffer the biggest all-time blow ever.

And they are progressive FBI agents.

They want the mid-terms moved up to February 2022, as opposed to Novembet, they want the Democrats slaughtered.

Me,too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2022 12:25 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2022 8:50 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 746
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 9.4


(2)
Message 187 of 193 (890928)
01-12-2022 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by LamarkNewAge
01-12-2022 1:38 AM


Re: Where to begin and when to end?
I don't think you know what the word fascism means. It's the far right that are fascists which is not the Democrats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-12-2022 1:38 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7148
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 188 of 193 (890932)
01-12-2022 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by LamarkNewAge
01-12-2022 2:06 AM


Any sources? Any?
You spout and spout. You call people names. You then throw more shit against the wall.

Let's start small.

I just talked to friend of mine, from old, and they think the FBI is about to suffer the biggest all-time blow ever.

And they are progressive FBI agents.


Anecdotes and I hear from so and so don't cut it. My uncles' bartender's cousins' wife's nephew is not a reliable source. Ever.

They want the mid-terms moved up to February 2022, as opposed to Novembet, they want the Democrats slaughtered.

Who is they? Source?

Edited by Theodoric, : clarification


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-12-2022 2:06 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by nwr, posted 01-12-2022 11:52 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7148
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 189 of 193 (890943)
01-12-2022 9:57 AM


Back on topic? Maybe? Please?
Can we get this topic back on track? If Phat wants to discuss an impending civil war, I think he should propose a new topic, rather than hijacking this one.
I do apologize for participating in dragging this off-topic. Getting reacquainted with the place again after my absence

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 01-12-2022 4:55 PM Theodoric has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5887
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


(4)
Message 190 of 193 (890958)
01-12-2022 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Theodoric
01-12-2022 8:50 AM


Re: Any sources? Any?
Who is they?

As best I can tell, the "they" that LamarkNewAge is talking about in this thread is identical to the ether that Michael MD is talking about in An Ether-Based Creation Model. It is just vaporware.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2022 8:50 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 191 of 193 (890959)
01-12-2022 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Theodoric
01-12-2022 9:57 AM


Topic: Causes Of The Civil War
Im glad to see you back! I was concerned that you had caught COVID or something.

The only reason I used this topic is the heading: Causes Of Civil War. The news article on N.P.R. mentioned the possibility of a new one. Many of the underlying issues have similarities. Any succession would again bring up the issue of States Rights.

Attention Everyone. This topic, started by Theodoric a few years ago, is about the US Civil War in 1865.

Theodoric writes:

Subbie and Dr A posted this info in the quote thread already. I hope they do not mind that I repost it here.

Message 50
In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

- State of Mississippi in its Declaration of Causes of Secession

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

- Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

(Emphasis in original)

- State of Texas in its Declaration of Causes of Secession

Message 81

Resolved by the general assembly of Virginia [...] That these causes are to be mainly found in the denied equality of the rights of the slaveholder and the non-slaveholder, involved in the proposed partial exclusion of the former from the common territories--in the breach of the plighted faith of some of the non-slaveholding states and people, by acts and laws designed to obstruct the recovery of escaped slaves--by avowed designs to shape the policy, and use the machinery of the general government so as to effect, by indirection, the extinction of slavery, which it is conceded that government cannot rightfully or directly interfere with--and by other acts importing a denial of our rights of property in our slaves, and of our exclusive control over slavery as a domestic institution--and these are causes of complaint common to all the slaveholding people and states, and are in plain violation of the spirit and terms of our compact of union. --- Journal of the House of Delegates of the State of Virginia, for the Extra Session, 1861.

The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the federal government having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the southern, slaveholding states: --- Virginia Ordinance of Secession

quote:
The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

Source
Lee to Mrs. Lee, Dec. 27, 1856; Lee MSS., Library of Congress.

So here is some evidence to counter your assertions. Now, are you ready to refute it?

Artemis Entreri was Theodoric's uninformed opponent called out to defend his assertions.

But Theo nailed down a case early on.

quote:
Slavery was an integral part of the reasons for the war. Was it the sole reason? No. But the economic reasons for the war were driven by slavery. States rights is just a smokescreen to hide slavery as a primary cause.(...)The war from the union side was to preserve the union. The war from the confederate side was to dissolve the union.

quote:
So you agree that at the time they had no legitimate reason for seceding on the states rights issue. This again shows that the states right argument is just a thinly veiled covering of slavery being the issue. Is it much different than ID and Creationism?

This should be 1865.



"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2022 9:57 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2022 4:59 PM Phat has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7148
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 192 of 193 (890961)
01-12-2022 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Phat
01-12-2022 4:55 PM


Re: Topic: Causes Of The Civil War
I don't think we should rehash this. I think you should propose a new topic based on what you brought up.
Let this topic die.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 01-12-2022 4:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 01-12-2022 5:23 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 193 of 193 (890963)
01-12-2022 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Theodoric
01-12-2022 4:59 PM


Re: Topic: Causes Of The Civil War
Agreed.

My New Topic is here.

Could Trump Instigate A New Civil War?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2022 4:59 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022