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Author Topic:   Are Point Mutations problematic for ToE?
subbie
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 14 of 36 (584043)
09-29-2010 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 7:03 PM


Not that I disagree with anything anyone else has said here, but I've got a different take on it.
Evolution occurs in populations, not individuals. Assume a population that is homogeneous at a particular locus. Next, assume one or more individuals in the next population exhibit a mutation at that locus. Obviously the total "genetic information" in the population will increase, regardless of whether the mutation itself increases or decreases the amount of "genetic information" because the daughter population will include the original allele plus the new allele. This will not be the case only in the extraordinarily unlikely event that all individuals in the daughter population exhibit the exact same mutation.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by seanfhear, posted 09-29-2010 7:03 PM seanfhear has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by seanfhear, posted 09-29-2010 10:39 PM subbie has replied
 Message 30 by Blue Jay, posted 09-30-2010 10:26 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 36 (584049)
09-29-2010 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by seanfhear
09-29-2010 10:39 PM


Well, by definition it must be more of a confirmation since it's not a problem to any degree whatsoever.
Actually, as I think about this more, there's no need to assume homogeneity of the parent population. The only important factor is whether the mutation introduces an allele to the daughter population that wasn't present in the parent population. And, there's also one more situation where that new allele may not necessarily increase the "genetic information" in the population. That is where the mutation eliminates an allele from the population.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by seanfhear, posted 09-29-2010 10:39 PM seanfhear has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by seanfhear, posted 09-29-2010 11:06 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 35 of 36 (584224)
09-30-2010 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Blue Jay
09-30-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Population or Individual?
I agree with you on this perspective, and I've used this argument before too. But, thinking about it now, I don't know this is really a useful argument, since, on the population scale, a mutation is essentially defined as an increase in information. Obviously, this isn't what creationists object to at all.
I think it's vital that we emphasize that what creationists object to is based entirely on a strawman version of evolution. In this line of argument, they are ignoring how evolution actually works. As I said at the outset, I agree with what others have said. But at bottom, it's irrelevant whether a particular mutation increases or decreases "information" because it's indisputable that mutations do increase "information" in the population overall.
By all means, show that the creationist claim that mutations decrease "information" is bollocks. But that demonstration is rather technical, and includes difficult discussions about what "information" means and how to measure it. For the uneducated, it's all a lot of muddy water. By contrast, the demonstration that every mutation increases "information," no matter how it's defined, is clear to even those who know absolutely nothing about genetics. A mutation creates a new genetic sequence that wasn't present in the population before the mutation occurred, but doesn't eliminate the sequence that existed before the mutation from the population. Ergo, more "information."

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Blue Jay, posted 09-30-2010 10:26 AM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 10-01-2010 6:41 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
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