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Member (Idle past 1507 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Data, Information, and all that.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
The Creationist who accepts a natural origin of species but a miraculous origin of life has neither theological nor scientific support. But this species of Creationist can be a comfort since their mere presence acts as counterpoint to those Creationists who assign evolutionists a sinister motive for wanting to keep biogenesis and abiogenesis separate.
--Percy
[text=wheat][Wordsmithed 1st sentence. --Percy][/text] [This message has been edited by Percy, 03-12-2004]
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
"The Creationist who accepts a natural origin of species" is not a creationist by the usual definition of the word
Creationism Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.comis pretty specific about it involving literal biblical creation Creationism - Wikipediacuts a little more slack, but still shows a strong literal christian bias. more like an evolutionist in the closet ...
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1421 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
Abby,
I think anyone who proposes miraculous or supernatural mechanisms as being necessary for any natural phenomenon is a creationist. regards,Esteban "Funk'n'Wagnall's" Hambre
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
That is pretty broad based ... you might just as well say "anyone who is not an atheist" because even agnostics think supernatural activity may be involved or have been involved.
The purpose of words is to draw distinctions and when the distinctions blurr the words become useless: if I call all my tools "hammers" because they are all tools, then I have trouble asking for a screwdriver. A proper term imho for your definition is theistTheist Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com Is a Buddhist a creationist if they believe that everything has always existed in an endless cycle of reincarnation, while still allowing supernatural behavior? I find it interesting that a survey of Americans showed that approximately half didn't know what creationism was ... (I can find the survey and the actual ratio if need be).
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1421 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
Abby,
Please note that I said that a creationist believes miraculous intervention is necessary to explain natural phenomena. I think the crux of the issue is the sufficiency of natural law. I think there is good reason to believe in the universal application of natural law, and creationists do not. Someone brought up a good point about design or intention as it applies to the lottery. Maybe it only seems random, but in fact the process is controlled by the intention of the divine will. Is there any good reason to believe this? Does it constitute an affront to honest religious belief to assert that the outcome of a lottery is random and unpredictable? I think the regularity of natural laws is reason enough to suspect that they are not merely the whims of the Creator. It's for that reason that we'd consider something 'miraculous' if it violated scientific laws. regards,Esteban "Law Abiding" Hambre
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5060 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
we are talking a matter of degrees? and not absolute's then???????
I am begining to notice AND take note that the JACOB mentality of evo as a tinkering is becoming the NOrm? in the web cheapened discussion of evolution before creation. This may be the consensus but then if that is what evo means today I know a herp differntly as I ALWAYS have. I also think I am near to conceive or simply have percieved that one can RETURN to Wright's first and more general use of chance randomness that he later discounted(made cheaper as well?) to get the point over to FIsher. Fisher never accepted his brain. Others know better but then a data division becomes necessary which it may not.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1507 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I'll try again ....
If there is no specific definition of informationfor this text, one must assume a common-language usage, not a technical one. Using 'information' as a descriptive, metaphorical wayof explaining DNA in organisms is a far cry from claiming that there is any information (in any technical sense) there. Even if you want to use the 'information is a measure oforder' approach you run into problems. DNA (as a chemical) shows order (the same as any other chemical). A chain of DNA does not. ANY sequence of bases is possiblehence there is no specific 'order' involved. The processing, within the cell, from DNA to protein shows'order' in this structural/deterministic kind of way. If that's all you mean, OK. I already said that. IF on the other hand, you are trying to claim that cells areprogrammed to do what they do, and that the DNA sequences are more like machine code ... that's where I disagree.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Peter writes: IF on the other hand, you are trying to claim that cells areprogrammed to do what they do, and that the DNA sequences are more like machine code ... that's where I disagree. I have to agree that cells are not programmed, if "programmed" in any way implies a sapient entity. But there does seem to be a legitimate analogy to be drawn between DNA at work and computer programs at work. --Percy
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Peter Member (Idle past 1507 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I have no problem using the analogy ... so long as
one remembers that it IS an analogy and not a formal/accurate description of the system in question. Even then it's not the DNA sequence alone ... the DNAsequence is more like the data tables that a program might use. [This message has been edited by Peter, 03-18-2004]
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5060 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
Peter indeed it is a "far cry" but if one were able to use vicariant species distributions and DNA alingement gaps to PREDICT differential distributions of procaryotes in the solar system then I think we have to ADMIT the idea of information IN there those genes etc. If it takes another 20yrs just to get the database I will indeed have lived before my time for I can indeed imagine that this is not a fig but meant to be known for real. You have to guess two openings on the first try. This is hard to do.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Not just the solar system, but throughout space (although we are more likely to find it there than across cosmic distances with our current means and limitations)
We know that some 'organic' molecules are found in deep spacehttp://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-01zi.html (Kitt Peak - October 1, 2001) This would tend to bias life development to use this molecule rather than try to replicate it or a near likeness from the bottom up. The effect may be indistinguishable from organic contamination. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5060 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
Yes butNO ONE is putting out these predictions today. So you like me would have expected that you could go to Cornell and become an academic to actually try if not actually make such not retrodictions about physical artifical life but nautral chemical streches that match up Russel's word "disjunct" with a color of Nelson's fish map of Africa for an explation not only of HOW but WHY (Catholicism and Panbiogeography) Croizat was not on any LUNATIC fringe in Caracass and rejected such "lights"first as MAYR, THEN NELSON OR GOULD (but both). A job in the Bufflo Museum of Science is NOT the proper result for the work that these thoughts could do if given the degree a chance. The issue comes in when one tries to use distance as measured as the crow flies without interacting with a physical intution of the interval that SEPERTED the material work of such a generation as LORENZ, EINSTEIN, and POINCARE.
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: This is the type of information that I think exists in genomes. We could compare tree ring temporal thickness across mountain ranges to guage annual rainfall across a geologic range and come across the same information. However, I think we can all agree that a single tree ring does not contain contain information. It is when humans start comparing between genomes that information arises, there is not intragenomic information in this sense. The information in DNA is due to selection on variation, and this information can be understood by cataloging changes in alleles across populations, and even across speciation events. On this we can agree.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
do fluctuations at subatomic level cause self organizing trends in low gravitations fields?
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand
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DNAunion Inactive Member |
First, y'all, I'm not a Creationist. Even when I was arguing for ID I was offering ETIs, not God.
Second, ...
quote: quote:
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