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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
jar
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Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1 of 274 (585778)
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


A pretty common assertion that comes up around here is that Revelations 13 describes some coming world wide financial system.

Here is an example of the assertions:

Buz writes:

Biblically/prophetically, this is on tract, corroborating other end time prophecies. Why? Because it is prophesied in the book of Revelation, chapter 13 that all nations, tribes and tongues will, in the apocalyptic end times be required to buy or sell via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead.

I see this as relevant to what's going on. All global currencies will fail, necessitating a global monetary system in which all money is globally regulated and secured by a global government so as to be totally safe from theft and/or inflation. Christians are forbidden to receive this mark; thus the great tribulation and global persecution of Christians (also prophesied by Jesus and the apostles).

from: Message 46

Here is the passage from Revelation 13:

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


Let's look at this passage.

First, everybody gets the same number and the number does NOT identify the individual but rather "The Beast". There is no mention that this is some substitute for money or goods or any other method of buying or selling.

Second, everybody gets the number. There is nothing in the passage about Christians being forbidden to get the "Mark".

So let's see if there is anyway that this passage could be talking about money, currency, that buying or selling is "via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead"?

As mentioned above, the mark is the same for every person. It does not identify the individual or any account or currency, it just identifies "The Second Beast". There is no way it can be used to effect some transaction.

Second, is there anything that says Christians would not be allowed to have the "Mark"?

Nope. In fact it says that everyone gets the "Mark", not that everyone but Christians get the "Mark'.

So we have two strikes, it is not an identification that could replace currency and it is not something that Christians are not allowed to have.

So maybe it says something about "All global currencies will fail, necessitating a global monetary system in which all money is globally regulated and secured by a global government so as to be totally safe from theft and/or inflation"?

Nope yet again.

No mention of all global currencies failing, no mention of a global monetary system (which of course has existed as long as humans have traded crap), no mention of money being regulated or secured by a global government or that somehow that would prevent theft or inflation.

Maybe it talks about implants? Shuckie Darn, it says "a mark on his right hand or on his forehead".

Golly Gee Whiz, yet another strike.

So is there any support for the claim that Revelations 13 contains ANY prophecy related to some future monetary system?

Bible A&I please.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Edited by jar, : fix title

Edited by jar, : response to the pedantic one

Edited by jar, : still slaying s's


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 10-09-2010 9:47 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 4 by nwr, posted 10-09-2010 9:48 PM jar has responded
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 10:30 PM jar has responded
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 1:12 AM jar has responded
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 8:33 AM jar has responded
 Message 88 by Rrhain, posted 10-12-2010 4:31 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 92 by Jeremy86, posted 06-28-2015 2:43 PM jar has responded
 Message 186 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 11:14 PM jar has responded
 Message 205 by Davidjay, posted 04-07-2017 9:42 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 6 of 274 (585821)
10-09-2010 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nwr
10-09-2010 9:48 PM


Well, Revelation is a classic example of the style called Apocalyptic Literature. But it appears to be talking about Rome and meant for people of the day. The big thing is that it is filled with examples of unfulfilled prophecy and so many people that don't understand that it is only talking about the past try to squint really hard to see if they can it fit into the future.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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 Message 4 by nwr, posted 10-09-2010 9:48 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 7 of 274 (585822)
10-09-2010 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
10-09-2010 10:30 PM


Re: Mark
ICANT writes:

It seems that there is a system that to buy or sell you have to have a mark, name, or number in your hand or your forehead.

I am not sure but I think that would qualify as a monetary system.

On, not in.

And just how do you have a monetary system that does not indicate an individual, an item or an amount?

AbE: Missed this.

ICANT writes:

If everybody has the mark why is the penalty for not having the mark not being able to buy or sell?

Yup. It says everybody has the mark.

It also says that you can't buy or sell without it.

Still no mention that Christians would not have the Mark.

Edited by jar, : missed one question.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 10:30 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 10:59 PM jar has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 9 of 274 (585825)
10-09-2010 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coyote
10-09-2010 10:45 PM


Re: Nonsense
Of course it is nonsense, but I'll admit if someone can show me how a mark that is exactly the same for every person and every transaction can be a monetary system I'll be impressed.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 11 of 274 (585827)
10-09-2010 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
10-09-2010 10:59 PM


Re: Mark
ICANT writes:

jar writes:

And just how do you have a monetary system that does not indicate an individual, an item or an amount?

Simple.

It makes no difference what form of currency you have if you can't buy anything with it.

It makes no difference what product you have if you can't sell it.

So if you can't buy or sell what good would currency of any kind be?

Thank you for proving that the assertion it is a monetary system is total nonsense.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 10:59 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 11:32 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 22 of 274 (585880)
10-10-2010 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
10-09-2010 11:32 PM


Re: Mark
Thank you for explaining that a Mark that only identifies the name or number of the Beast is a monetary system.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 11:32 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 23 of 274 (585882)
10-10-2010 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
10-10-2010 1:12 AM


an "I ♥ The Beast" stamp"
Wouldn't an implant contain both types of ID? For example an implant might include biometric and financial data for the individual as well as permission information from an authorizing agent. The data might be encrypted using a public/private key system that further verified and identified an authorizing agent.

Except the story tells us what data is involved. no biometrics, no financial data, no encryption, just the name or number of the Second Beast.

If the mark really were of the beast, Christians would avoid a Faustian deal with the devil and would not accept the mark even though doing avoiding it will make their life uncomfortable.

Buzsaw's interpretation seems quite a stretch. I don't see how a single global currency would be thought of as a solution to any of the current financial problems.

Could be, except for one thing. Nothing in the passage says anything about Christians not getting the Mark. Earlier it says that the folk that won't worship the Beast get killed. But it does not identify them as Christians and all them got killed anyway so they are out of the story.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 1:12 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 24 of 274 (585885)
10-10-2010 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulK
10-10-2010 8:33 AM


Re: A more plausible explanation ?
Absolutely. And Rome under Claudius or Nero are what most of the story seems to point towards.

The main characters in the early creation of Christianity were likely born during the reign of Tiberius. But the period right after Jesus death, the formative period for early Christianity, was under Caligula, Claudius (who conquered Judaea) and finally Nero.

It would not be surprising then to see Rome as a succession of Beasts.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 8:33 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 30 of 274 (585912)
10-10-2010 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 9:46 AM


Re: Corroborated End Time Events[qs]Marks and numbers are being implanted in tiny com
Marks and numbers are being implanted in tiny computer chip inplants. This is the obvious likly methodology of how it emerges into fulfillment.

But that is not what the Bible says Buz. I even posted the passage in the OP.

Have you ever read the Bible Buz?

The MARK identifies the Beast. It is the same MARK on every person. Please explain how that is used as a monetary system?

In case you forgot, here was your assertion...

Buz writes:

Biblically/prophetically, this is on tract, corroborating other end time prophecies. Why? Because it is prophesied in the book of Revelation, chapter 13 that all nations, tribes and tongues will, in the apocalyptic end times be required to buy or sell via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead.

I see this as relevant to what's going on. All global currencies will fail, necessitating a global monetary system in which all money is globally regulated and secured by a global government so as to be totally safe from theft and/or inflation. Christians are forbidden to receive this mark; thus the great tribulation and global persecution of Christians (also prophesied by Jesus and the apostles).

and here is what the passage you referenced actually says...

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


The MARK is the Name or Number of the beast. It does not identify the individual, a transaction, a currency, a value, an item, the amount, tag, tax or title.

How is that a monetary system?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 9:46 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 32 of 274 (585920)
10-10-2010 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
10-10-2010 2:41 PM


Re: an "I ¢¾ The Beast" stamp"
Look at what YOU are doing here.

The story clearly says what the MARK is. But you say "It doesn't exclude all kinds of things we can imagine".

But when you read the story, it does just that. It explicitly says that the Mark is the Mane or Number of the Beast (Beast the Sequel that is).

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


Your interpretation is simply too literal, in my opinion. You don't allow for the use of any symbology whatsoever, even though the author clearly uses symbolic language.

Christians would be among those who do not worship the beast. Perhaps the policies of killing all non-beast worshipers is not 100% effective. Perhaps not getting the mark is not taken as complete proof of failing to worship the beast by non-Christians.

But again, that is NOT what the story says.

quote:
15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

The image of the first beast is set up and all those that do not worship it get killed.

Now certainly we can make up all kinds of stuff, and honestly, that is exactly what seems to be the case when it comes to Biblical Prophecy.

But if that is the process then it is possible to make any prophecy seem true, they lose all value.

The most reasonable explanation for the stories in Revelation is that it is an example of Apocalyptic Literature and is talking about the Roman Empire in the post Tiberius period as I pointed out in Message 24, not anything that will happen in the future.

jar writes:

Absolutely. And Rome under Claudius or Nero are what most of the story seems to point towards.

The main characters in the early creation of Christianity were likely born during the reign of Tiberius. But the period right after Jesus death, the formative period for early Christianity, was under Caligula, Claudius (who conquered Judaea) and finally Nero.

It would not be surprising then to see Rome as a succession of Beasts.

Caligula, Claudius and then Nero would certainly look like a series of Beasts to the early Jewish Christian Sect.

Edited by jar, : left out a word


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 2:41 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 3:17 PM jar has responded
 Message 36 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 4:01 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 35 of 274 (585928)
10-10-2010 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
10-10-2010 3:17 PM


Re: Revelations and Prophecy
You might think that.

However that is not supported by history, instead the old interpretation is quietly shelved and a new interpretation is rolled out.

The "End Times" phenomenon is funny because like Jason, it never dies.

The question remains, is there any support in the passage from Revelation 13 that can support Buz' assertion?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 3:17 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 37 of 274 (585938)
10-10-2010 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Nimrod
10-10-2010 4:01 PM


Re: Roman Empire or Future? (re:Jar and others)
You might think that Revelation 1.1 might be a clue for them too.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 56 of 274 (586035)
10-10-2010 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
10-10-2010 8:27 PM


Re: Mark
Too funny and yet another example of you trying to misdirect the audience attention while you palm the pea. Did you ever read the Bible or even the OP?

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


The MARK is the name or number of the Beast.

It is the same thing on every single person.

It is a TradeMark.

It is NOT a monetary system.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:27 PM ICANT has responded

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 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 9:02 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 60 of 274 (586040)
10-10-2010 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICANT
10-10-2010 8:46 PM


Attractive Rabbit Hole warning
ICANT writes:

Which of these cover,

A mark in your hand or forehead? What is this mark?

A name in your hand or forehead? What is this name?

Or a number in your hand or forehead? This is the number 666.

Yet another attempt to misdirect the audience attention to allow you to palm the pea.

It is irrelevant what the mark is or the name is, it is the name of the Beast. Asking those questions is simply a way to avoid the real issue that the passage in Revelation does NOT describe a monetary system.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:46 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 10:04 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31196
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 63 of 274 (586044)
10-10-2010 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
10-10-2010 9:02 PM


ICANT is still digging them attractive rabbit holes.
ICANT writes:

Call it anything you want to call it. You won't be able to buy or sell anything without it. In fact you will probably be shot when you can not produce one of the three in your hand or forehead.

LOL. I'm not gonna much worry about it since Revelation was talking about stuff from almost 2000 years ago.

BUT the point is, the assertion quoted in the OP is still refuted, the MARK is NOT a monetary system.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 9:02 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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