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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 28 of 274 (585907)
10-10-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 9:36 AM


Re: Mark
quote:

Buz
skeptics choose to disregard the fact that the powers that be in the nations today are pressing toward global government. Islam also aspires to become the theocracy which will wield the power to force worship on all nations enforce by threat of death (likely beheading as per Revelation 20:4, cited above.) Beheading is the likely and traditional Islamic method of execution"

When Arabs had total power(from 638 AD on) over endless lands with huge Christian (as well as Jewish) populations, the Christians werent forced into any type of conversion.

But the Roman Empire(*post* Constantine "conversion) killed endless Christians and the severe persecution continued under the Constantinople-based East Roman/Greek Orthadox/ Byzantine empire till Christians were given complete freedom of worship in 638 AD by Arab Muslims.

If there was complete tolerance of Christians in an age of intolerance (the 7th century AD through the 15th AD wasnt exactly an age of enlightenment), then I doubt Islam(which is followed by only 20% of the world and will hardly ever be much more) will somehow become some anti-Christian faith (the Koran calls Christians and Jews "people of the book" and forbids forced-conversion of the followers).

Christians have had freedom of worship since the rise of Islam (outside of "Christian" Europe anyway) and all modern global trends indicate a future that only progresses toward ever more freedom of conscience the world over(despite the worlds pockets of intolerance that humans have generally been known for putting their fellow humans through).

The very "evils" of creeping liberalism that some fundamentalists rant and rave against are the very proof that the 21st century is an awful fit for predictions that Buz seems to want to see. (one cant deny that Islamic lands are somewhat backwards in overall human-rights though, but even this small fraction of all lands is seeing inching progress ON TOP OF its pre-existing tolerance of Christians)

Im sure Buz will have a few horror stories from Afghanistan or some other small country to overlook the very clear global trend and thus sidestep the fact that his prophetic scenarios (which twist the Bible btw) are completely out of sync with any 21st (or 22nd) century world we live in.

Im sure he will ignore many more contradictions as well.

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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 36 of 274 (585933)
10-10-2010 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
10-10-2010 2:57 PM


Roman Empire or Future? (re:Jar and others)
quote:

Jar
The most reasonable explanation for the stories in Revelation is that it is an example of Apocalyptic Literature and is talking about the Roman Empire in the post Tiberius period as I pointed out in Message 24, not anything that will happen in the future

quote:

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
....
1:11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
....
2:8-9
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

....
3:1-3
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
....
3:7-9
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Prophecy folks like to play geography with Old Testament prophecies during the Jeremiah/Ezekiel period of c600 B.C.E. and somehow compare it to the 21st century situation in Israel.

It doesnt work anyway as Phoenicians/Canaanites/non-Israelite Palestinians controlled modern day Israel as far south as Dor(actually lower, infact as far south as Jaffa) for the entire monarchy period and especially during the time of Jeremiah/Ezekiel(archaeology and even the Bible agree that they controlled land from the period of Solomon on).Non Israelite Palestinians and Philistines controlled 90% of the coast.

Yet modern day Israel has the highest concentration of Jews on the coast.The Canaanite/Philistine land!

Most Bible dictionaries over 70-80 years old say the Canaanites (and the built in maps show it) controlled much land of modern Israel plus they say they were the majority in Galilee all throughout the Old Testament period.

The Edomites also controlled the Negev when Ezekiel was making his prophecies in chapters 38-9.

Yet the Negev is almost all Jewish today in Israel.

Solomon gave Hiram the Canaanite 20 cities south of Dor and God never condemed it.That was even though the Sidonians/Phoenicians fought off the Israelites during the Conquest (Joshua couldnt take Sidon, Tyre , etc.).

The book of Ezekiel says the "Merchants of Tarshish" (Tartessos in Spain was a Phoenician colony plus the word Canaanite means merchant) or Canaanites/non-Jewish Palestinians wont be fighting the war that Hal Lindsey said was parallel to the final battle in Revelation.Neither will Sheba (south Arabians) or Dedan (north Arabians).I have a quote of Chuck Missler(who holds conferences with Hal Lindsey) attempting to explain this away as a prophetic prediciction that Saudi Arabia would be our alley.

Missler simply explains the "merchants of Tarshish" as Ezekieal saying Spain and Britian(he feels the Phoenicians had a colony in Britain) wont be fighting Israel.Nevermind that every scholar in the world knows it refers to Phoenicians and that Phoenicians are the same as Canaanites which geographically would refer to modern day Palestinians.

ANYWAY..........

I wonder if the geography obsessed (however ignorant they are since the geography of 600-560 BCE doesnt match todays boundaries) prophecy folks will ignore the fact that the geographical situation in Revelation is seemingly centering on Christian communities in Turkey though Christians are nearly non-existant in the 21st century Turkey and especially those churches which are not only among ruins but are actually completely worn away(not even a ruin left).

There seems to be an over-riding theme of Jews as the main enemy of Christians too.Does that sound like the 21st century? And remember that most prophecy-obsessed Christians describe this period in Revelation as "pre-rapture" so they cant entirely use the tribulation(ie 7 literal year end time period) as an excuse.

I wont look forward to the responces because Im sure I will be ignored.

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AdminPD

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 2:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 43 of 274 (585950)
10-10-2010 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICANT
10-10-2010 4:38 PM


Re: Mark
quote:

ICANT
There will be many people who have heard the prophecy of this event taking place and when the world ruler who has deceived the nations stands in the Temple doorway to the Holy of Holies of the rebuilt Temple and declares himself to be god they will know what is coming. So they won't go easy. It will take 2 to 3 years before he kills them all. So their lives won't be easy.

But Jesus said that his ressurection would signify the new Temple when he said that if it would be destroyed then it would be rebuilt in 3 days.So thats the New Testament view of the Temple.

Plus the recent 200th anniversary issue of Biblical Archaeology Review showed that the Muslim Mosque is the rebuilt Temple of Solomon.It was one of their featured stories in their big anniversary double issue.I covered that in my last visit here nearly 2 years ago(though I have much more to quote from sources on that issue among many other prophecy issues).See my last posts in Buz's Ezekiel thread from 2009.

It is a routine among prophecy-minded Christians to ignore everything previously covered.

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AdminPD

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 4:38 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 5:57 PM Nimrod has responded

    
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 48 of 274 (585955)
10-10-2010 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by frako
10-10-2010 4:56 PM


I still trying to figure out how...
...Muslims will somehow impose Islam on*all* the 7 continents since Australia, North and South America, Europe, and the Arctic continent are included.The first is less than 1% Muslim as are the next two (Muslims were 0.32% in the U.S.A. according to a Newsweek religious demographic study), the 4th is far less than 10% (without Turkey then its like 2%, as Albania is tiny and after that,only France has only about 7%-8% Muslims), and the 5th isnt worth mentioning.

Asia is dominated by China and India.Muslims are about 5% in China and severely persecuted.India is known for Muslims being such a minority that serarate nations were formed so Muslims could have rights(Pakistan and Bangladesh).And those nations are full of bars that serve beer plus Islamic parties cant get more than a few percent in elections.

That leaves Africa.

Africa had seen rapid growth in the Roman Catholic faith, infact it is the only continent where Catholics arent shrinking in number(infact the reverse is true).Muslims are perhaps less than 50% of all Africa.

Oops,I forgot to mention that this was in responce to the foolish Buz quote that somehow worked the Islamic faith into the persecutors in Revelation(which seems to be a combination of Jews, Romans and perhaps Babylonians).

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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 52 of 274 (585993)
10-10-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ICANT
10-10-2010 5:57 PM


Re: Mark
Nimrod writes:
But Jesus said that his ressurection would signify the new
quote:

nimrod
Temple when he said that if it would be destroyed then it would be rebuilt in 3 days.So thats the New Testament view of the Temple.

ICANT
Now since this is totaly off topic in this thread maybe you would like to start one and discuss it.


The problem is that prophecy-pushers are constantly making careless claims without evidence.Nearly every line from the above ilk counts as a claim and not a basic factual comment.Perhaps it is off topic, but it came up nevertheless (by you).There are much more "off-topic" lines that needed a responce frankly.So many comments from prophecy minded fundies need some back-up proof but are just thrown out as if they are somehow factual.

God Bless

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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 57 of 274 (586036)
10-10-2010 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 8:06 PM


More examples below. (or above)
quote:

Buzsaw
There are things yet to be completed before Armageddon and the 2nd advent of Jesus etc. Armageddon, the finality of the end times when Jerusalem is invaded are in the relative near future; most likely within the next 40 years; likely sooner than later.

All that needs to be observed for the Buz take on these prophecies is a continuation of the progression of corroborating events as prophecied; that is, progression towards one world monetary marks and numbers, progression of hostility towards Israel (that is after a prophesied 3 1/2 year truce), progression towards persecution of Christian (i.e. the great tribulation), progression of the expansion and rise of Islam, continued dimishment of the Wester powers, including the US and the increase of powers via a Russian, European and Islam block nation alliance emerging into the final superpowers ever increasing their allied domination of the UN global beast/final Gentile global empire.


I often get accused of making off topic posts in my responces but my responces have to do with claims like these.

"On-topic" or "off-topic"?

Buz offered claims to establish a credible context to the narrowly focused topic of the thread.There are wider issues involved here, and responces often get written off as "off topic".

Islam and its so-called "expansion and rise" was brought up by Buz as context to support the idea that Revelation(?) has a credible context.Where is Islam rising? Muslims seem just as interested in beer as they are in obeying the Koran.There are bars everywhere in most Muslim countries.

The United States is an offshoot of Europe but he places Europe in a "block" with non-western nations and as opposed to the U.S.A.

Diminishment of western powers? From 100% of power down to 98% I suppose.

Christians being persecuted now as in worse than the past? In Europe? In India? Chinia has seen much improvement since the cultural revolution.Russia has improved as much in about the same amount of time. South American persecution of Christians? There is much more freedom now than when the Spanish recently arrived. Persecution in North America?

I see improvement everywhere on the religious freedom front.

Fundi-Christians need to stop using "liberal" as a dirty word if they keep this kind of rhetoric up. (They typically accuse Europeans of being anti-military pussey-cats and bemoan increased tolerance of all types of behavior in the U.S.A. and everywhere else.)

Contradictions,contradictions,contradictions.

And just what does this have to do with the Bible anyway? Oh yea, they contradict that too.Just like when they push for "in your face public"group prayer in school despite the fact that Christianity should be against all forms of public prayer(it should be "secret"non-private prayer hidden from others) based on the Sermon on the Mount commandment(around Matthew 5:9-11 or 6:9-11 or somewhere I forget).

Just like Buz using a Revelation thread to claim that the Bible talks about Islamic persecution of Christians as prophecy when Jews seem to be singled out as these "end-times" meanies to Christians (how can one escape this conclusion when Buz places Revelation as describing end-times events?).

"Off-topic", Im sure will be the responce if I get any at all.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 10:31 PM Nimrod has responded

    
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 73 of 274 (586067)
10-10-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 10:31 PM


Re: More examples below. (or above)
quote:

Buz
I've been into the prophecies for 60 plus years since a teenager back when Israel became a nation as prophecied. Perhaps sometime you will understand that in order to figure out any given Biblical prophecy study entails all corroborating prophecies related to what is being studied. Scripture interprets scripture.

By isolating any prophetic book of the Biblical prophecies you will never come to the correct understanding. That's why novices like Jar, you and some others don't get it right. You're wading in the shallows when you need to be swimming in the deep to engage in prophecy debates.


So we need to conflate how many different parts of the Bible to form a complete picture of an end-times war?

Seems to me like you want a conflagration of scripture since you ignore so much of it.It gets really bad when you have to ignore basic history in addition to many current world trends that contradict your prophetic scenarios.

So how do you explain the fact that Jews are the bad guys in Revelation? Is it prophecy or not? What other parts/books of scripture do you intend to skillfully merge in with revelation to explain the harsh end-times language that states Jews are the main persecutors of Christians?

I cant wait to see the Buz "melting pot" job on scripture. It will be a real bible bonfire.

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AdminPD

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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 85 of 274 (586226)
10-12-2010 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ICANT
10-11-2010 9:57 AM


Re: More on the likely reality of Revelation
quote:

ICANT
Why wouldn't I accept the late date?

The evidence requires the late date.


Leading scholars like F.F. Bruce (for sure) and I think also N.T. Wright date REvelation before 70 A.D./CE.

Hank Hanegraaff (The Aopcalypse Code) showed how many current fundamentalists show hypocricy when they accept the majority of scholars on their shaky date(ie. c100 CE) for Revelation yet they reject the more solid date (not that Hanegraaff accepts it) for putting Mark at 65-75 AD and the other gospels post 70 AD.I forget exactly what he said but he responded to a quote showing LaHaye mockingly saying something like "not a scholar in the world would place Revelation before 70 AD".

quote:

ICANT
What is soon or the time being near for you is one thing because you are a human limited by time.

Soon and near to an eternal being can be thousands of years.

What is the arguement long day people use oh "a thousand years is the same as a day with the Lord".


Hanegraaff also showed the hypocricy in LaHaye taking some prophecies that say "soon" to be much much later(like 2000-2500 years or so), yet taking verses that describe something a longer time off as taking place much sooner.I forgot the example but his book is the best (not that there have been many attempts) at responding to much of the current prophecy craze among Christians.

There have been about 1000 books promoting 20th/21st century prophecy fulfillment (one couldnt count the endless video presentations, sermons, t.v. shows, promoting the 20th/21st century prophecy fulfillment) yet the amount of books responding are very very scant (my memory might be failing me but at the time the Hanegraaff book is all I can really remember though I can think of magazine/journal type publications that have good responces to loud echo chamber of "21st prophecy fulfillment").

I plan on starting a prophecy thread once I get speaking software.It will be the mother(infact a single post could have over 100,000 words) of all threads in text, but I intend to quote extensively the leading prophecy experts (their books,study bibles, tape series, videos, televisions shows, plus journal articles) then I will respond(using more quotes from a variety of sources including their own) and show that they are nearly 100% wrong in every wild claim they make.

I already have notes which refer me to the books I intend to quote plus I have jotted down endless quotes already in pencil.

The Hanegraaff book was actually pretty good at quoting LaHaye and then using sources to refute him.I even learned of a few sources I didnt know existed plus some of his sourced quotes will be useful for me.I was amazed at what a good book it was. I tend to find books by fundamentalists to be nearly worthless (except as a way of seeing how they misuse data and play fast and loose with the facts), but this was a good one.


This message is a reply to:
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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3148 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 87 of 274 (586230)
10-12-2010 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Modulous
10-11-2010 10:48 AM


A point to make.
quote:

ICANT
The only way the mark can be in the hand or forehead is if it is an implant of some kind.

Modulous
Like a tattoo, perhaps.

But in which Greek copy is the word 'en' used rather than 'epi'?

That is to say where does it imply the Mark is endodermal rather than epidermal? The copy I have access to uses 'epi'.


Im not sure if anyone will appreciate it but you made quite a good post.

I was just recently reading a thread where Buzsaw was using the "textus receptus" verses "the Alexandrian manuscript" as somehow relevant to what manuscripts Genesis translations were based on.

See it here (posts 13 and 25)!
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?control=msg&m=580717

I know we all make mistakes but there are several clues in his entire post(especially 25) show that he was indeed ignorant of the basic fact that the textus receptus is the Greek New Testament text the King James used.(there are far more errors in his post but Ill leave it at that)

In the same thread, ICANT said(post #29)

quote:

ICANT
Adam is an English word and did not exist until the English language existed.

Adam is not a Hebrew word.


He/She went on to make an argument that since Hebrew lacked vowels, the rendering should be a literal "ADM" translation of the Hebrew consonants.However,Aleph actually isnt an "A" though the Greeks used it(which they got from from the Phoenicians) to represent an A vowel that they didnt have a letter for.So ICANT clearly didnt know what he/she was talking about.(Aleph does often have an "a" vowel after it, but the fact that the "a" in Adam is a vowel would destroy whatever argument was trying to be made)

Also, Adam *IS* a Hebrew word even if the vowels werent written down in biblical times.One can see how the word is spelled in other languages (ie.Sumerian-ADAMA) to see the proper pronuciation/spelling plus Hebrew was used over a long period of time beyond biblical times.

Somehow, I dont think your knowledge of Greek will impress these two.

But your point was fantastic.

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AdminPD

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This message is a reply to:
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