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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
Member (Idle past 4968 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010

Message 16 of 274 (585846)
10-10-2010 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
10-09-2010 11:32 PM

Re: Mark
Permission to buy and sell is not equivalent to being actually able to buy and sell, nor is permission equivalent to having something to buy and sell with.
A firearm's license does not mean I can wander into any gunshop and take whichever pick my fancy.
Being of legal age does not mean I may walk into any liquor store to take my favoured bottle of spirits from the shelf whenever I please, nor collect a whore from the corner, nor pick up that pouch of quality tobacco for my pipe.
I am certainly permitted to buy these things. But I must use actual money to do that buying.
The mark is not a monetary system at all. It is only one of permission.
General sidenote: and a frickin' weird permission at that since anybody without the mark is dead anyway -- as was quoted, anybody not worshipping the Beast is killed off. It makes little sense to provide a permission to everybody who could possibly use it while removing anybody that would not use it from being able to use it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 11:32 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 4:38 PM Nij has not replied

Member (Idle past 4968 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010

Message 51 of 274 (585962)
10-10-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
10-10-2010 6:06 PM

Re: Mark
As pointed out in the message you replied to, and as the earlier examples show, the mark is simply not a monetary system. It is only a permission/authority system.
You do not trade the mark, thus the mark is not currency, and so it is not part any monetary system.
You require the mark to buy and sell; but you do not buy and sell using the marks to pay.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 6:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:27 PM Nij has replied

Member (Idle past 4968 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010

Message 75 of 274 (586091)
10-11-2010 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
10-10-2010 8:27 PM

Re: Mark
Seems I keep arriving too late or too early.
Jar's already pointed it out; the mark is the "name or number" of the Beast.
This name and/or number would be exactly the same for everyone -- the number's given as exactly 666, in fact, and the "name" wouldn't be given at all (because of that supertition about knowing something's real name giving you power over it, or because you're not supposed to know it before the event, or because this was a late Jewish sect avoiding any overt reference to the guy who could have them executed for treason. Take your pick of reasons).
And knowing either is irrelevant. The mark is not traded for goods. It is not currency. It is not a monetary system.
The mark is used to grant permission. Hence it is a permission or licensing system.
Having permission to buy or sell and having money to buy or sell with are two different things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:27 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ICANT, posted 10-11-2010 10:18 AM Nij has replied

Member (Idle past 4968 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010

Message 86 of 274 (586229)
10-12-2010 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by ICANT
10-11-2010 10:18 AM

Re: Mark
Firstly name and number can not be the same thing. A number is not a name, it is a number
"... and letters are not names, they are letters."
It is not only the thing itself, but how we use that thing which determines what we would call it. Typically a number is not used as a name, but that does not mean numbers cannot be used as names. If a number is used to identify you and you are called that number in common usage, then that number is your name, And thus yes, they can be the same thing.
There is no place in the Greek text that gives a definition of the mark nor is there any place in chapter 13 that links it to the name or the number of the Beast.
So when you state what the mark is you are simply asserting what you think it is or repeating what someone elese has said they think it is.
If you disagree and believe the Greek text does give a definition of what the mark is, please present your evidence. I presented mine to jar in an earlier post
I assumed evidence was provided to back the assertion that the mark was the number or the name. Silly me I should have checked that jar could support his claims before resting my own case on them.
Oh wait, it was.
[quote=jar in message 1, the OP]16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
emphasis added.
So yes, the mark is related to the name and number. The mark is the name or number.

How can you determine what the mark is used for?
Because the Bible tells us what it is for: only people with the mark can buy or sell. It is identifying the members of a specific group, being those who have permission to buy and sell (and more widely, we can infer that this is also the group of people who worship the other fella).
It is in the hand or forehead not on the hand or the forehead.
So how do you know what it is?
The only way the mark can be in the hand or forehead is if it is an implant of some kind.
I would assume it is something of the order of the radio chip that was added to all credit cards that have been issued since 2000. If you have one on your person and walk close to a receiver it reads all your information instantly if the card is not shielded.
As above, we know what it is because the text tells us such; it is "the name of the Beast or the number of his name".
Later on we are informed that the number is 666. The name is not included for obvious reasons, both of these as I explained earlier.
Tattoos and piercings are considered "in" the body part they are, well, in. And that's if you only want to take a literal interpretation as of course you do.
If one considers other uses of the word 'in' then the verse could easily refer to a piece of paper with permission written on it, held "in the hand", just as authorised documents we have now include a signature and stamp or seal, and just as would have been the case in the period Revelations was written.
Once again:
It is not a mark to be traded (nor representative of something that can be traded). It is only present to grant permission; it is not there as any form of currency. Therefore it is not part of a monetary system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ICANT, posted 10-11-2010 10:18 AM ICANT has not replied

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