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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 31 of 274 (585915)
10-10-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
10-10-2010 9:08 AM


Re: an "I ¢¾ The Beast" stamp"
jar writes:

Except the story tells us what data is involved. no biometrics, no financial data, no encryption, just the name or number of the Second Beast.

I disagree. Revelations does not exclude other information from being included as long as the mark of the beast is present.

quote:
Could be, except for one thing. Nothing in the passage says anything about Christians not getting the Mark. Earlier it says that the folk that won't worship the Beast get killed. But it does not identify them as Christians and all them got killed anyway so they are out of the story.

Your interpretation is simply too literal, in my opinion. You don't allow for the use of any symbology whatsoever, even though the author clearly uses symbolic language.

Christians would be among those who do not worship the beast. Perhaps the policies of killing all non-beast worshipers is not 100% effective. Perhaps not getting the mark is not taken as complete proof of failing to worship the beast by non-Christians.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 9:08 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 2:57 PM NoNukes has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31191
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 32 of 274 (585920)
10-10-2010 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
10-10-2010 2:41 PM


Re: an "I ¢¾ The Beast" stamp"
Look at what YOU are doing here.

The story clearly says what the MARK is. But you say "It doesn't exclude all kinds of things we can imagine".

But when you read the story, it does just that. It explicitly says that the Mark is the Mane or Number of the Beast (Beast the Sequel that is).

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


Your interpretation is simply too literal, in my opinion. You don't allow for the use of any symbology whatsoever, even though the author clearly uses symbolic language.

Christians would be among those who do not worship the beast. Perhaps the policies of killing all non-beast worshipers is not 100% effective. Perhaps not getting the mark is not taken as complete proof of failing to worship the beast by non-Christians.

But again, that is NOT what the story says.

quote:
15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

The image of the first beast is set up and all those that do not worship it get killed.

Now certainly we can make up all kinds of stuff, and honestly, that is exactly what seems to be the case when it comes to Biblical Prophecy.

But if that is the process then it is possible to make any prophecy seem true, they lose all value.

The most reasonable explanation for the stories in Revelation is that it is an example of Apocalyptic Literature and is talking about the Roman Empire in the post Tiberius period as I pointed out in Message 24, not anything that will happen in the future.

jar writes:

Absolutely. And Rome under Claudius or Nero are what most of the story seems to point towards.

The main characters in the early creation of Christianity were likely born during the reign of Tiberius. But the period right after Jesus death, the formative period for early Christianity, was under Caligula, Claudius (who conquered Judaea) and finally Nero.

It would not be surprising then to see Rome as a succession of Beasts.

Caligula, Claudius and then Nero would certainly look like a series of Beasts to the early Jewish Christian Sect.

Edited by jar, : left out a word


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 2:41 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 3:17 PM jar has responded
 Message 36 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 4:01 PM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 274 (585923)
10-10-2010 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
10-10-2010 2:57 PM


Revelations and Prophecy
jar writes:

Now certainly we can make up all kinds of stuff, and honestly, that is exactly what seems to be the case when it comes to Biblical Prophecy. But if that is the process then it is possible to make any prophecy seem true, they lose all value.

Some amount of interpretation is inherent in the process of trying to make sense of prophecy written in symbolic language. It's going to be difficult to screen out false heraldings of Ragnarok from the real thing.

It also means that we're going to constantly hear fanciful predictions from those who think the end is next week if not sooner. Buz seems sure that we are living in the end times. Based on that he predicts a course for future events. If all currencies do not fail and a global currency is not introduced, then Buz will be proven wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 2:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 3:29 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 35 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 3:34 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-10-2010 5:04 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15328
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 34 of 274 (585925)
10-10-2010 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
10-10-2010 3:17 PM


Re: Revelations and Prophecy
Firstly, even if the Revelation doesn't exclude additional information, it doesn't tell us that any is present or even give a reason why any additional information would be needed. As I pointed out it sounds much more like the Mithraic Brands which were likely around at the time than anything Buz suggests.

And how can Buz be proven wrong ? With no time limit he can always say that it's coming soon until the day he dies. Anyone who actually follows international affairs can see that it isn't coming soon. There are too many disputes over exchange rates and arguments over national sovereignty to consider a global currency even a remote possibility in the forseeable future. And just look at what is happening with the Euro ! A global currency would be a far more difficult problem !


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 3:17 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-10-2010 4:23 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 8:06 PM PaulK has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31191
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 35 of 274 (585928)
10-10-2010 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
10-10-2010 3:17 PM


Re: Revelations and Prophecy
You might think that.

However that is not supported by history, instead the old interpretation is quietly shelved and a new interpretation is rolled out.

The "End Times" phenomenon is funny because like Jason, it never dies.

The question remains, is there any support in the passage from Revelation 13 that can support Buz' assertion?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 3:17 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3146 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 36 of 274 (585933)
10-10-2010 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
10-10-2010 2:57 PM


Roman Empire or Future? (re:Jar and others)
quote:

Jar
The most reasonable explanation for the stories in Revelation is that it is an example of Apocalyptic Literature and is talking about the Roman Empire in the post Tiberius period as I pointed out in Message 24, not anything that will happen in the future

quote:

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
....
1:11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
....
2:8-9
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

....
3:1-3
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
....
3:7-9
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Prophecy folks like to play geography with Old Testament prophecies during the Jeremiah/Ezekiel period of c600 B.C.E. and somehow compare it to the 21st century situation in Israel.

It doesnt work anyway as Phoenicians/Canaanites/non-Israelite Palestinians controlled modern day Israel as far south as Dor(actually lower, infact as far south as Jaffa) for the entire monarchy period and especially during the time of Jeremiah/Ezekiel(archaeology and even the Bible agree that they controlled land from the period of Solomon on).Non Israelite Palestinians and Philistines controlled 90% of the coast.

Yet modern day Israel has the highest concentration of Jews on the coast.The Canaanite/Philistine land!

Most Bible dictionaries over 70-80 years old say the Canaanites (and the built in maps show it) controlled much land of modern Israel plus they say they were the majority in Galilee all throughout the Old Testament period.

The Edomites also controlled the Negev when Ezekiel was making his prophecies in chapters 38-9.

Yet the Negev is almost all Jewish today in Israel.

Solomon gave Hiram the Canaanite 20 cities south of Dor and God never condemed it.That was even though the Sidonians/Phoenicians fought off the Israelites during the Conquest (Joshua couldnt take Sidon, Tyre , etc.).

The book of Ezekiel says the "Merchants of Tarshish" (Tartessos in Spain was a Phoenician colony plus the word Canaanite means merchant) or Canaanites/non-Jewish Palestinians wont be fighting the war that Hal Lindsey said was parallel to the final battle in Revelation.Neither will Sheba (south Arabians) or Dedan (north Arabians).I have a quote of Chuck Missler(who holds conferences with Hal Lindsey) attempting to explain this away as a prophetic prediciction that Saudi Arabia would be our alley.

Missler simply explains the "merchants of Tarshish" as Ezekieal saying Spain and Britian(he feels the Phoenicians had a colony in Britain) wont be fighting Israel.Nevermind that every scholar in the world knows it refers to Phoenicians and that Phoenicians are the same as Canaanites which geographically would refer to modern day Palestinians.

ANYWAY..........

I wonder if the geography obsessed (however ignorant they are since the geography of 600-560 BCE doesnt match todays boundaries) prophecy folks will ignore the fact that the geographical situation in Revelation is seemingly centering on Christian communities in Turkey though Christians are nearly non-existant in the 21st century Turkey and especially those churches which are not only among ruins but are actually completely worn away(not even a ruin left).

There seems to be an over-riding theme of Jews as the main enemy of Christians too.Does that sound like the 21st century? And remember that most prophecy-obsessed Christians describe this period in Revelation as "pre-rapture" so they cant entirely use the tribulation(ie 7 literal year end time period) as an excuse.

I wont look forward to the responces because Im sure I will be ignored.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 2:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31191
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 37 of 274 (585938)
10-10-2010 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Nimrod
10-10-2010 4:01 PM


Re: Roman Empire or Future? (re:Jar and others)
You might think that Revelation 1.1 might be a clue for them too.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 4:01 PM Nimrod has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 274 (585941)
10-10-2010 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by PaulK
10-10-2010 3:29 PM


As Long As We Are Making Stuff Up....
Consider this scenario. A world overburdened by debt that it cant pay back agrees to a form of global bankruptcy. The ones who hold the debt (maybe even you or I, in our pension funds) lose out, and a new financial system is discussed. Perhaps this system is backed by humans as value. Each human who agreed to become part of the system would be given a debit value. Perhaps the debit value would be based on what the individual was promised before....for those of us who had pensions or money in investments, we would be given a debit value of, say, 200,000 units. Folks that were poor before would, of course, have to be given less of a debit value...otherwise the system would be unfair. A poor man in India, for example, may be given a debit value of 100 units. Under the new system, however, he could earn units at the same rate as a man in America could, provided he had the education and skills to justify his earnings. Only those who were tied in to this system could participate, for their pledge would be their work and value. Health care and welfare would be built into the system, though at vastly lowered economic rates and ratios. Caring for a dying poor man, for example, shouldn't be the responsibility of those with more units exclusively...every human in the system would be equally taxed for such care.

Those who refused to pledge their allegiance to this system would be unable to buy, sell, or participate in welfare and health care benefits.

Participation alone would be "the same mark". Either you were in or you were out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 3:29 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 4:49 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 39 of 274 (585943)
10-10-2010 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
10-10-2010 12:40 AM


Re: Mark
Hi Omni,

Omnivorous writes:

So kinda like a retailer permit or wholesaler license?

I'm sure it won't take the place of those.

If you try to sell anything you will be required to produce the mark, the name or the number in your hand or forehead or you can't sell it.

If you try to buy anything the same rule will apply.

As I understand it the penalty for trying to buy or sell without the mark, name, or number is death. I will assume that anyone who would buy or sell anything to anyone who does not have the mark, name or number will suffer the same fate.

So I don't think it will be like a retailer permit or wholesaler license.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 10-10-2010 12:40 AM Omnivorous has not yet responded

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 40 of 274 (585946)
10-10-2010 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Nij
10-10-2010 1:04 AM


Re: Mark
Hi Nij,

Nij writes:

General sidenote: and a frickin' weird permission at that since anybody without the mark is dead anyway -- as was quoted, anybody not worshipping the Beast is killed off.

There will be many people who have heard the prophecy of this event taking place and when the world ruler who has deceived the nations stands in the Temple doorway to the Holy of Holies of the rebuilt Temple and declares himself to be god they will know what is coming. So they won't go easy. It will take 2 to 3 years before he kills them all. So their lives won't be easy.

So it is not permission to buy and sell it is your authority to buy and sell. Without the mark, name, or number in your hand or forehead you can't do either.

You could have tons of gold, piles of paper bills you still could not buy or sell anything.

I still think it is a monetary system.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Nij, posted 10-10-2010 1:04 AM Nij has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 4:51 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 44 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 4:54 PM ICANT has responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 41 of 274 (585947)
10-10-2010 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
10-10-2010 4:27 PM


Re: Mark
so no mark yet, and no apocalipse on 2012 cause the mark is not used yet.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 4:27 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15328
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 42 of 274 (585949)
10-10-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Thugpreacha
10-10-2010 4:23 PM


Re: As Long As We Are Making Stuff Up....
That's not even remotely likely. You assume a complete collapse of the financial systems of every major country in the world. OK it's possible, but not that likely. Then that they happen to all get together and build one world system. That sounds even less likely. And that system is going to set the same wages everywhere ? And presumably the same prices ? Good luck with that !

And it still doesn't resemble anything in the Revelation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-10-2010 4:23 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3146 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 43 of 274 (585950)
10-10-2010 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICANT
10-10-2010 4:38 PM


Re: Mark
quote:

ICANT
There will be many people who have heard the prophecy of this event taking place and when the world ruler who has deceived the nations stands in the Temple doorway to the Holy of Holies of the rebuilt Temple and declares himself to be god they will know what is coming. So they won't go easy. It will take 2 to 3 years before he kills them all. So their lives won't be easy.

But Jesus said that his ressurection would signify the new Temple when he said that if it would be destroyed then it would be rebuilt in 3 days.So thats the New Testament view of the Temple.

Plus the recent 200th anniversary issue of Biblical Archaeology Review showed that the Muslim Mosque is the rebuilt Temple of Solomon.It was one of their featured stories in their big anniversary double issue.I covered that in my last visit here nearly 2 years ago(though I have much more to quote from sources on that issue among many other prophecy issues).See my last posts in Buz's Ezekiel thread from 2009.

It is a routine among prophecy-minded Christians to ignore everything previously covered.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 4:38 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 44 of 274 (585951)
10-10-2010 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICANT
10-10-2010 4:38 PM


Re: Mark
I still think it is a monetary system.

It isn't a monetary system, it is a transaction regulation system. A monetary system is what represents wealth. In the US the monetary system is dollars. Since you don't trade marks for goods, the marks are not a monetary system.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 4:38 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 6:06 PM Modulous has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 45 of 274 (585952)
10-10-2010 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by PaulK
10-10-2010 4:49 PM


Re: As Long As We Are Making Stuff Up....
yea the same money all over the world is a bit impossible say an african child that woks for 1000 xy a month that equals one euro a month if the world currency would be euro how would the child spend it cause the change is not small enough for their prices. and if you fix the money so that we al use their xy one would need a truck to bring enough money to go grocery shopping in our country. so the same money all over the world is impossible whitout the same standard all over the world, and that aint gonna happen.

as for the worlds economie to go broke it can happen if someone can turn led in to gold it would happen fairly quickly since moste currancies are based on gold on some level.


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