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Author | Topic: Distinguishing "designs" | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Most of my life has been related to design. Over the years I have been a technical writer, trying to explain the functioning of something designed, and also to act as the intermediary between the designers and the users; a systems designer in the Cable Television industry designing CATV systems from the tiny (one serving about twelve houses at the base of a damn) to large ones over a thousand miles in extent; a computer programmer designing applications and networks and even some language work; in the fire service helping design tactics, procedures and even hardware and most recently, designing webpages.
There are significant differences that I can see between things designed by some intelligent (or in the case of Windows, semi-intelligent) entity and the designs we see in nature. One key difference is in the area of rapid adoption of good ideas and cross implementation. Good design adopts good ideas regardless of the source. An advance in one field is often adopted and implemented in other unrelated fields, and a good idea is very quickly adopted throughout the originating field. In fact, the process of adoption is so pervasive that we have had to create rules and regulations to limit the practice. We call those rules, Patent and Copyright. A second major difference in intelligent design is that in all cases, there is a predetermined goal and specified outcome. It could be to build it cheaper, or make it last longer or appeal to a market segment or get into production faster, but there is always some initial design criteria. As I pointed out in Message 8, we do not see those characteristics in biological critters. Biological systems seem to have only one criteria, to be just good enough to last long enough to reproduce. Advances in one area are not incorporated and extended across all critters. There is no appearance of some predetermined goal or objective. There is no need for Patent or Copyright since there seems to be little or no adoption and co-option of ideas, of design. While many may argue that they see apparent design, there is no indication of a designer. The only avenue they have is the unsupported allegation that if there is design there must be a designer. However, if they make that assumption, then looking at the outcome, biological critters, the only possible conclusion seems to be that ID stands for Inept Designer or Incompetent Designer or Ignorant Designer or Inelegant Designer or Inefficient Designer or Inexpert Designer or Insensible Designer or Idiotic Designer. If there is a Designer that is responsible for the specific biological critters, then the Designer is an Idiot who needs to be fired. If there is any case to be made for ID, I can only see it at the very basic levels, for example having a goal that life should continue and designing the process "Evolution" as the answer. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Unless there is some deep reason for an intelligent designer to give his or her creation less than optimal designs, in which case only the very intelligent designer would do that. But I am not addressing optimal design. Rather what I addressed were design concepts, the adoption of good ideas across the spectrum and how that is seen in one type of design but not in the other. What we find in biological critters is nowhere near best, but just barely good enough to get by, and in fact, almost universally insufficient to get by. Far more species have failed QC than have succeeded. Even among the extant species reproduction is usually a failure. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yes, it is possible to make up a case to justify any position you want. The question is does it then stand up to examination.
The facts though are that if there is a designer who designed beyond the very most basic level, and by that I mean at the forces and process level, then the designer is incompetent. When we look at biological critters, the norm is failure. A I said above, even among extant species the norm is reproductive failure. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Also, creating strawman arguments.
No, it isn't possible to conclude that, unless we know the will of the designer. I'm sorry, but we can still judge the products REGARDLESS of the will of the designer. We are judging the product. It is irrelevant what the will of the designer might have been.
If the designer was trying very hard to get optimum designs, but failed, then I'd agree. But we don't know what the designer was thinking, so for all we know it could have been perfectly intentional and for good reasons. Again, I have said several times I am not addressing optimal design as a criteria. Do I need to repeat it yet again?
Anyway, there is no reason, apart from the obvious religious beliefs of the creationists, to assume that the designer was all-good and all-powerful. That isn't the viewpoint of ID proponents (well...not officially anyway). Again, irrelevant. I am simply addressing the characteristics we see in the biological critters and comparing them to a standard of what minimal human design would be. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You often hear people talk of the 'good ol' days', and how ' things aren't built like they used to be'. Well, the designers have gotten cleverer, and they know that if they build things to last, then they won't sell as many products as if they break after a while. Perfectly intelligent and rational beings, deliberately choosing something that is just barely good enough. How do we know something similar isn't going on with the design of living critters? Well, if you can show a profit motive for designed obsolescence in biological critters, then perhaps you may be able to make a case. So far all you are doing is the same thing that the Biblical Inerrancists do, Theology by anything that can be made up. As I said upthread, it is possible to make up most anything. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I can conceive of a situation (regardless of there being evidence for it or not), that invalidates your argument that 'bad design, if indicating designer, indicates bad designer'. Yes, it is possible to make up anything. I have agreed with that several times. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If your argument was truly valid, no hypothetical situation could invalidate it. Nonsense. It is possible for someone to assign any characteristics to an imaginary creature. As I mentioned up thread it is the same tactic used by the Inerrantists to explain away the contradictions in the Bible. It is called the Theology of Anything I can make up. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
As I mentioned in Message 23 and many times up thread, it is always possible to make up anything.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I ask you again to define your terms? Ray, did you read Message 1? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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