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Author Topic:   Would ID/Creationists need new, independant dating techniques??
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 144 (591267)
11-12-2010 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Zubbbra25
10-18-2010 1:30 PM


Re: Independent Dating Techniques
Zubbbra25 writes:
My question is, wouldn't it be correct in assuming that the YEC position would indeed need new, independant dating techniques and if so, have any been modelled? or tested?
Hi Zub. A hearty welcome to EvC from a long time dyed in the wool ID Biblical (literalist) creationist.
Here's the deal. The reason I've been arguing for rejecting conventional dating methodology is that the earth and atmosphere was significantly different than post flood.
The implications of all preflood data in the Biblical record indicate a vapor canopy like atmosphere which was likely much larger, extending further into what is now space, the warmer close to earth layers of it effecting expansion into space, consisting a significant more volumn of H2O etc.
The elements of both living things and atmosphere would not have been consistent with post flood.
The lifespan of man, size of animals and other phenomena was, according to the Biblical record significantly different than post flood. Some evidence of tropical life in the arctics os observable, lending support to this vapor canopy.
In short, sudden catastrophy. the magnitude of what is described in the Biblical record is not conducive to accomodate modern dating methodology.
It is not entirely knowable as to the pre-flood earth and atmosphere, but for sure, it would not be sufficiently uniform to accomodate much of the conventional dating methodology.
My bone of contention is as applicable to the conventional YEC hypothesis premise as it is to the evolutionist one. A literal rendering of Genesis one is not compatible with the six millennium earth age. This is a different topic but it has been hashed over in past threads.
So perhaps my answer to your question would be yes, ID creationists would need a different dating methodology. I'm not sure whether there is enough known or enough to be assumed about the pre-flood earth and atmosphere to implement such a methology.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Zubbbra25, posted 10-18-2010 1:30 PM Zubbbra25 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by DrJones*, posted 11-12-2010 8:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 85 by jar, posted 11-12-2010 8:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 87 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2010 8:31 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 88 by hooah212002, posted 11-12-2010 8:31 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 112 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-13-2010 5:23 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 144 (591270)
11-12-2010 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Taq
11-10-2010 3:09 PM


Re: The Creationist Literature
Taq writes:
slevesque writes:
Creationist models have always had a gliciation period following the flood.
What dating methods did they use to determine the extent and timing of these glaciation periods? Or are they simply asserted to have happened without any evidence whatsoever?
I don't know about the conventional creationist models depict relative to glaciation, but the Buzsaw model would depict no glaciation period perse. The flood waters would have been relatively warm globally post flood, the poles eventually freezing subquently to the receeding of the flood waters but not to the extent of implementing a glacial period perse. In fact, the equator temperate zone would have been as hot as it is presently and the only glaciation would have been at the poles, not extending into the more temperate zones of the planet.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Taq, posted 11-10-2010 3:09 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Taq, posted 11-15-2010 1:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 144 (591273)
11-12-2010 8:32 PM


Re: Assuming Premise, Then What?
Jar and Jones, an assumed flood premise and pre-flood Biblical premise clearly implicates a vapor canopy. This thread is not the place to debate the flood or the vapor canopy.
My point was to show why such a premise would not be compatible with conventional dating data.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 11-12-2010 8:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 119 by Taq, posted 11-15-2010 1:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 122 by jar, posted 11-15-2010 1:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 144 (591278)
11-12-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by hooah212002
11-12-2010 8:31 PM


Re: Independent Dating Techniques
hooah writes:
Your "bone of contention" is that you consider yourself an "ID creationist" which flies in the face of creationism AND IDism........ I'm not even sure you know what side you play for. As for the rest of the drivel in your post: that's all meaningless BuzSpeak. It's meaningless. You've never provided evidence for anything other than your ignorance. You don't even speak English half the time and you claim to be some great patriot. Juan down the block speaks more proper English than you, Buz.
LoL, Hooah, if all you can muster up in refutation of my stuff is to attack me personally, I suggest you open a thread in the Freeforall and I'll have it out with you as to how well you and I size up articulately.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by hooah212002, posted 11-12-2010 8:31 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by hooah212002, posted 11-12-2010 9:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 144 (591279)
11-12-2010 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Coyote
11-12-2010 8:31 PM


Re: Independent Dating Techniques
Coyote writes:
If creationists want to base a dating method on the flood and it's effects, or on the sssckdkdz factor, they will have to present evidence that either of these things exists first. In the case of the flood this will be difficult, as the early creationist geologists, seeking to document the flood, gave up just about 200 years ago.
Coyote, how many times do I need to say it? The question asked in the OP does not necessarily call for a resolution to the flood/no flood debate. The question is whether such a premise would call for an alternative dating methods.
There are numerous Biblical creationist ID hypotheses as to interpretation of the Genesis record relative to literatness. The Buzsaw Hypothesis is uniquely literate, not necessarily assuming YEC and assuming an eternal unverse, etc.
The problem with elitist YECs is that the Docs of Divinity have been educated over the conventional theology institutional assembly lines of conventional wisdom and knowledge, both Biblical and secular. Instead of thinking and applying logic for themselves, they, like their secularist counterparts get their young minds filled full of mush all the way from kindergarten to doctorate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add an s for accurate articulation.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2010 8:31 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2010 9:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 144 (591286)
11-12-2010 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by shalamabobbi
11-12-2010 5:22 PM


Re: Studying Ancient Corals/YEC Duration Of Day
shalamabobbi writes:
how would a YEC dating technique of any kind take into account the change in the duration of the day as revealed in studying ancient corals?
Would you mind elaborating on your question?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by shalamabobbi, posted 11-12-2010 5:22 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2010 9:44 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 107 by shalamabobbi, posted 11-12-2010 11:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 144 (591288)
11-12-2010 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Coyote
11-12-2010 9:30 PM


Re: Independent Dating Techniques
Coyote writes:
Are you game to look at real world evidence, or will you, in the words of another Heinlein quote, let belief get in the way of learning?
How much of your cited data assumes a relative uniform non-disaster model? The non-uniform disaster model implicating a pre-flood vapor canopy premise would necessarily call for an alternative interpretation of observable evidence. No?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2010 9:30 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2010 9:48 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 99 by jar, posted 11-12-2010 9:50 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 100 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2010 10:00 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 101 by hooah212002, posted 11-12-2010 10:07 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 120 by Taq, posted 11-15-2010 1:15 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 144 (591300)
11-12-2010 11:09 PM


Off topic; I'm not going there, Got that? .
Why are some of you people repeating demands for flood, sudden disaster non-uniform planet model and canopy evidence in this thread which would derail this thread?
How about some on topic refutation attempts relating to the valid points I've made?
What's wrong about referral of a disaster flood model premise relative to my points? How is that a less valid model than referring to a relative uniform model?
The ID creationist must assume the ID creationist non-conventional hypothesis for the purpose of answering the OP question pertaing to this thread. No?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by DrJones*, posted 11-12-2010 11:18 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 105 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2010 11:19 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 106 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2010 11:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 144 (591302)
11-12-2010 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Dr Adequate
11-12-2010 9:44 PM


Re: Studying Ancient Corals/YEC Duration Of Day
Dr Adequate writes:
I wrote an article on it here, this may help
Thanks, Dr Adequate. I have to leave off of the PC now and off to church tomorrow. I'll check your info when I can get to it.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2010 9:44 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 144 (591306)
11-12-2010 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by DrJones*
11-12-2010 11:18 PM


Re: Off topic; I'm not going there, Got that? .
Dr Jones writes:
.......you claim that this bullshit "model" of yours would alter the verious dating techniques in use today. If you want to say "yes creationists would require new dating techniques to take in to account the effects of the flood" you have to show how the mythical flood would alter the current dating techniques, unless you wish to remain full of shit.
I've explained why the flood model premise would not be compatible to conventional dating data. I've cited some reasons which none of you people are refuting. For example, true or false; would a global Genesis flood model, factoring in other Genesis data and observeable physical evidence, such as tropical stuff in the arctics, etc, interpreted on that hypothetical model implicate a non-uniform atmosphere and earth surface?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by DrJones*, posted 11-12-2010 11:18 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 11-12-2010 11:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2010 11:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 111 by DrJones*, posted 11-12-2010 11:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 121 by Taq, posted 11-15-2010 1:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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