Who is really in charge of inspiration?

Could you give me some examples ?Though some popular fiction shows people "signing over their souls" ie. Faust, there is nothing much in the Bible about that.One exeption could be that of Antichrist's followers receiving a mark on their foreheads or hand with his name of his number, 666. Apart from that I see no signing over one's soul, Faust style, to evil.So what are your examples ? Give me your top five examples. And hopefully you can do so without injecting popular fiction like Faust into the respective texts.It is often the case the people familiar with say, Dante's Divine Comedy or Milton's Paradise Lost assume they know a lot about the Bible because of this. Or some who know the story of Dr. Faust assume it embodies biblical concepts when they may be quite jaded with the imagination of the authors I understand your challenge to be, "Well how do you know that your whole Holy Bible is not a trick of a devious being ?" In the natural realm discernment and discrimination usually comes with growth and more maturity. A four year old may be deceived easier then a 16 year old. And a 16 year old may be deceived easier then a 25 year old.With spiritual growth and experience encreased discernment comes, if all things are pretty normal.As a Christian I was never absolutely alone. I was in a family. And early I prayed that God would lead me to other Christians who could help my faith. He was faithful to me. I was not always faithful but God was. And in the spiritual family life there is protection and models to follow. The truth can be made more and more clear. And by their fruits we know the genuine followers of Jesus.We are not alone left to our own resources. God is our Father. And my experience is that the Father has kept me from many deceptions that I might have walked into had it not been for His protection. The method for the follower of Jesus to encrease in discernment is to obey. When you obey the Father in the matter put before you now, encreased awareness and wisdom results. With deeper obedience comes deeper discernment.God does not expect you to master all things of the spiritual walk immediately. Naturally growth takes time. Spiritually growth also requires time. If you believe and obey God in the matter in which He now speaks to you expressly, the result of your coming forward to Him will be encreased wisdom and the power to discriminate truth from error.This is method. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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No Nij. I take it up with the people who made the accusation about sacred text. You made the point. So I took it up with you - give me some examples.And it was a genuine question. For all I know you could have provided many examples. So you want to erect a big strawman and cast stones at it. When the validity of your strawman is questioned, you don't care.Right. If you're into erecting strawmen to show how powerful your arguments are, I can't take this discussion too seriously. I didn't ignore it.I compared spiritual growth with natural growth. And I spoke of the development of keener discernment. I also spoke of Christ's words of knowing the real advocates of His teaching by their fruits.When I first began to read the Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit, it expressly spoke to me. I told you that when, in the matters in which God convicted me, I obeyed, my discernment encreased. I wrote that in obedience, the ability to detect the real from the unreal grows.You ask "But how do you know you are right?" I have evidence that I am on the right track. That is all I need - indications that I am going down the right road.I don't really KNOW that the whole universe was not created 10 minutes ago with an appearance of age. I don't have mathmatical certainty that the earth is moving. I cannot really prove that it is not standing perfectly still and everything else around it is moving. I assume it is moving. I cannot absolutely prove it.When Christ encreases in my life and liberates me from things which I in vain could not previously liberate myself from, I have an indication that I am on the right track to believe the New Testament that Jesus is alive and available to me.I don't feel that I am obligated to become totally familiar with Buddhism, Islam, Zorasterism, Confucianism, or Hinduism because I believe in my New Testament.It is adaquate that I have some basic familiarity with other beliefs. I do not have to master all their details. And you do not find me here criticizing other who put forth thier beliefs in thier texts.Do you see me posting here condemning Moslems, Hindus, or Buddhists ? I speak about the Bible and how to believe it. You do not see me here arguing that: [b]"First you have to understand that the Bhgata Vita is all wrong. And the Quran is all wrong. And the sayings of the Buddha are all wrong. The sacred texts of Hinduism is all wrong.I do not proactively go after religions to declare them without any truth.So your challenge "How do you know YOUR Bible is right and OTHER sacred text is all wrong?" I would respond that I would be surprised if there were absolutely NOTHING of truth in any of the major world religions. I assume that they contain some amount of that which is true.I am here to busy speaking of the unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ. Let me turn the question to you ? If God existed and were to become a man, who among all human beings who have lived on this earth, would you vote for as being the most likely candidate to be that incarnated God ?If you ask me. I would say that the man Jesus Christ occupies a class of people consisting of one member - Himself.If you asked me I would say Jesus most qualifies to be the candidate for God having become a man. And I would say that the second most likely person comes nowhere close to Jesus Christ. Well, I don't think there is another book in existence quite like the Bible. In terms of the length of time in which the varied author's works span, there is not another book quite like it.I think the some Indian Sanskrit text are possible comparisons in length of time of compilation. I will be looking into that.What you are really talking about is tolerance, I think. I think a truly tolerant person is one who has a firm belief himself. I have met many a sloppy person who has no clue what to believe. They are simply clueless about the meaning of their lives. They fancy themselves as very tolerant.But I want you to first show me someone who has a firm belief in something, perhaps something he would even be willing to die for. Then in the light of those strong convictions we can see if he is "tolerant" of others who have a different belief.I have to run an errand at the moment. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The Bible says that Satan has deceived "the whole world." It says that the whole world lies in the evil one. The word picture of this passage is like a passive patient lying on an operating table under the knife of an evil doctor.I regard this as more serious a mischievous pranks, or "tricks" being played on the faithful. This is not the activity of a naughty leperchaun "playing tricks" on the faithful. This is a great cosmic evil that has the entire world deceived.It doesn't matter if you're "the faithful" or not. There is a cosmic evil intelligence diametrically opposed to God and God's will. There is one man who has dealt a defeating blow to this advasary, Jesus Christ.Man was meant to be the deputy authority over this creation of God. And a Man - Jesus the Son of God, has restored that rightful position to Man. He is in the process of spreading that victory from Himself alone into the members of His Body. His body are those organically united with Him through His salvation and His Holy Spirit.Jesus is what God meant by man. I understand you now. You meantioned plural "religions". So now you have two examples of maleviolent activity from the Bible. As a Christian I accept these examples. ME ? Conceited ?? Boy I am offended !!!Actually, I am much worse then you could possibly know. That is one of the things, along with other weaknesses and sins, which drives me into the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. He is humility incarnate. So praise the living God that I know where I can go for salvation from my sins. my conceit, my self centeredness, transgressions against God and man.You should feel very happy for me that I have such eternal hope and encouragement I am receiving forgiveness from God and deliverance in enjoying my Savior. Okay, you have given me something from the Bible. And you have given me something from the Quran. I said - "IF" - your game was strawmen, THEN I would not take you seriously. Right ?Now, this is my impression about the Quran from what I have read.The Quran is written not over 1600 years but over the course of about 30 years by one man. So be it. Perhaps that's not important to some people. But 40 different authors of idely varying walks of life, in three different languages over a span of 1,600 year are the source of the Holy Bible.When I read the Quran my opinion is that it appears to say many things which are in the Bible. It refers to biblical characters and biblical affairs. However, there is something perculiar in the way it mentions these things.It seems to give the reader the impression that the speaker is privy to more details then were disclosed in the Bible. It is kind of like someone saying -"Well, you all know the story of Abraham. But because I am privy to more of the real inside story, I will now supply you with the additional information so as to promote Islam."This sense of giving the reader additional information stricks me as adding some fabricated details to the truth in order to propogate some lies.I rarely speak against the Quran on this forum. Your challenge insists that I have to say something by way of comparison. Because there is much in the Quran from the Bible, that amount of truth attacks millions of listeners.The Quran emphasizes that there is only one God. Since there is only one true God, that portion of the Quran convicts millions of its value.The Quran emphasizes that idolatry should not be practiced. Since that is also a major theme in the Bible, that portion of the truth again, attracts millions of people.My opionion is that the Quran is trying to create a Arab Law Giver - an Arab version of a Moses. This to me is a step backwards from the Gospel of the Grace of Christ back to a law keeping self effort to be justified before righteous God - in the case of Islam - Allah.Details of both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are mentioned. But the author slyly plants the thought that previously undisclosed details are now being provided to give the "inside story".Of course the "inside story" deception of the Quran is to deny the Son of God vehmently. Actually, man never really knows God intimately in the Quran. There is no thought of God becoming the forgiven sinner's Father.You only must know how to bow, how to prostrate yourself, how often to fast, how to recite a prayer, how to give alms, how to make a trip to Mecca, etc. There is no thought of KNOWING God. There is the thought of OBEYING God. Mohammed becomes another Moses figure.I have asked Moslems if they know God. They evade the issue. They know ABOUT God. They know ABOUT Allah. They consider it humilty that no one could know God and God certainly calls no one His son or daughter.In other words there is no organic life relationship between man and God in the Quran.In contrast Jesus teaches the He and His Father will come to make a most intimate abode and dwelling place within the innermost being of the forgiven sinner - That I have experienced. You ask "How do you know that you are not being tricked by a maleviolent deceiver ?"Ultimately, I suppose only time will decide this with finality. I mean in an ultimate sense I would only know at the last judgment. I think I am on the right track. There are probably areas in which I am not so clear. But I am way more impressed with Christ the Son of God then Mohammed the alledged prophet.As human beings they simply are not in the same class. The testimony of the life of Mohammed and how he lived simply does not compare to that of Jesus Christ.Now, I wish I could read the rest of you post. But right now I have to stop. I'll try to address it latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I didn't notice a lot of extra hitherto unknown details of Old Testament history suddenly supplied by the New Testament.Some exceptions I can think of. But on the far greater references of the New Testament to the Hebrew Bible you do not have this same kind of additional details, as if the writers are now supplying you with a more complete record.Now, I do admit that you do have some theological interpretations about Old Testament history and passages. But here the Old Testament ITSELF gives us a heads up that a NEW COVENANT is to come in the future.Attempts by Moslems to portray Mohammed as a prediction from the Bible are more then feeble and obvious fabrications. For example, it is ridiculous for Moslem's to argue that Christ's speaking of the Holy Spirit to come to the disciples AFTER His resurrection, refers to the "prophet" Mohammed ". No I would only have to argue that Allah of the Quran is not the same God who inspired the Bible. And I would point out that Mohammed himself dounbted that he was getting messages from God. At one time he thought he was getting messages from demons. His wife and another relative encouraged him to the opposite.God would not tell us that Christ as raised from the dead in the New Testament only to latter tell us that He really was not. Rather, Judas died there in the place of Jesus. Or some such other direct negation of the New Testament.Do you think we are told by God that Christ is the Son of God Who died and rose from the dead only to latter tell us Christ is NOT Son of God and NEVER died at all ?Do you believe God would say both things ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Okay. But notice that you did not answer my question to you. Did you?Let me try again. If God is a reality and if God were to appear on earth in the form of a man, WHO among all human beings who have walked the earth, would you say is the most likely candidate to be that God ?Who acted like God the most ?
Who most definitely claimed to be God come as a man ?So while you submit that it is easy for a Moslem to say what I say, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist all to claim assuredness Who do you think confirms that God came among us here on the earth ?Do you wish to avoid having to address this simple question ? If so, why ? I think that anything leading me to truly trust in Christ is probably of God. Anything dampaning my appetite for Jesus is probably not of God.What causes me to dive deeper into the enjoyment of this Spirit of Christ is probably of God. If a teaching tends to reduce my appetite for God, dampen my love of Jesus, turn me away from Jesus and the brothers in Christ, or feeds a reliance on words opposing those of Christ, is probably of the enemy Satan.Now, I have a question for you. The New Testament has these words - And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil.

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For everyone who practices evil hates the light, and does not come to the light lest his works be reproved.

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But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-20) How do you know that your suspicion at the idea of Christ being the truth is not do to you loving spiritual "darkness" ? How do you know that you simply like your life of sinning and are reluctant to see any need for forgiveness and rescue, pardon and empowering to enjoy God instead of your evil works ?There was a time when I loved my sinful life. Christians got on my nerves. What made it worst was I didn't think there was any other way to live. So I might as well embrace my sins and resign myself to the fact that this is just the way I would always have to live. I loved the darkness rather than the light.How do you know that you are not just posturing about assurance when really you are one who "hates the light" and are unwilling to "come to the light" because your deeds would be reproved by God ? I have tried to show you that it is not simply a matter of finding a book which says "This is by God" so it must be of God.There is something more here. There is the testimony of a man, Jesus of Nazareth. If academy awards were to be given out to human beings who spoke and acted as God would be expected to speak and act, I think Jesus would have to get an oscar.Is there someone else who you think offers a serious challenge to a man who manifests God in the flesh, who would you submit casts doubt on Jesus Christ being most qualified to probably being that Divine Person ?He wanted nothing for Himself. He wanted everything for His Father. There is no trace of Him securing anything for Himself. He lived unto His Father. He died unto His Father. He did not even call for the legions of angels to defend Him from His persecutors, which at least He Himself firmly believed He could have done.There as nothing of SELF there. His absoluteness argues for His having the true truth of life. And I think because of this total lack of self interest and self preservation, God, the truth vindicated Him and has given Him a name above every other name. I've made a decision. You, Nij, you have to make a decision about this.If you think Jesus is not Son of God and Krishna or Mohammed or Allen Watts or Halle Salasi are more likely to be telling the true truth, then you run with that.I think Christ is more believable. And once again, I think time will tell.I will tell you this, If I do turn out to be wrong about the Son of God Jesus, I will have no regrets whatsoever. Believing in Him and enjoying Him is the best possible life I could have hoped to have lived on the earth.No regrets whatsoever. If I had to live life all over again, I'd say "Give me Jesus again, only this time SOONER." Can you say that about your doubting philosophy ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The question is really "How do I [Nij] know ?"My answers as to how I know will probably met with unbelief. Right ? Sure they will. So the conversation goes like this:jaywill: "Here's how I know I am on the right track - "Nij: "I don't believe that."So I did say "Time will tell." Now why do you object to me saying time will tell ?Some wise person once said "No lie can live forever." So if I concede that in the last analysis only TIME will indicate where the truth really is, why do you object to that ?I gave you no proof with mathematical certainty that Jesus is the truth. So, I'd quite while your're ahead if I were you. I think the New Testament is way to candid to be false propoganda. There are too many things in it which would be encremenating of the disciples had they been trying to put fiction over as fact.If there were twelve fishermen who concocted a fictional person and invented words for his mouth and deeds to be his, there is simply too many other things that a smart propogandist should have excluded.The candidness of the Gospels argue for their authenticity. Would you like some examples ? Well, the story is told by the evangelists Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus wrote nothing that we have.The "story" was told by His disciples. Some of the things in His teaching, I have to say, I have experienced. I can say "I know what that is talking about. I have experienced that."For example, John tells this moment in Christ's ministry: Before I knew that that passage even existed, I called on the name of Jesus . "Jesus, take me home. Jesus I'm tired. Take me home, Jesus" I know what happened. On that moment that I called on the name of Jesus for the express purpose of getting in touch with Jesus, I felt just like a flushed toilet.From deep within my innermost being, it was as if years of crud, filth, sins, shameful things, dirty things, was FLUSHED out of my heart. Heavenly DRAINO was running through my being.Something so sweet and clean and pure filled my being. A long time after that this passage of John 7:39 came to my notice. Out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water to the one who believes INTO Jesus Christ.I could say "I know what that is talking about. I have experienced that."This is one of the many facts which confirms that I am on the right track to trust in Jesus. But if you ask for mathematical certitude of my faith, I have to say, time will tell if Jesus is Lord or not. You do not know that Christ is a lie.And until you can show me what I have to gain by dropping my faith in Christ and picking up your philosophy, you'll just have to be disgusted.Do you have something superior to Jesus Christ ? I doubt it.
So I am banking everything on Jesus Christ.But if you have something better then the redemption, transformation, sanctification, and resurrection, glorification, comformation and eternal life and glory in the salvation in Jesus, what is it ?I can find nothing to compare with Christ. I can find nothing to compete with Christ. So I would have no regrets if He is not Lord.As it stands, the ones who are misled are those who cannot recognize that He is Lord of all.But I don't find that disgusting. I find that like me, you need God's mercy to open your eyes to reality. Propose something better then the Son of God to me. You have something superior to Christ ? What is it ?And you DON'T know that Christ is not as He said "the way and the truth and the life" Why are you here in the universe ? I know why I am here. Why are you here ? Besides your revulsion, what would you offer me that could take the place of Jesus the Son of God ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

After the comment about the rabbit hole, I thought your heavy was Alice in Wonderland.This generation is befuddled with over entertainment.Did you and Tweedle Dum get your little exchange ironed out now that I am out of the way ?Okay. You want my serious reply now ? The issue is not nearly that simple. You have a Person born in Bethlehem that was predicted to be born some 500 years earlier. Micah the prophet spoke of one whose goings were from eternity, who would come a ruler of Israel.Now this scripture was so familiar to the experts in the Hebrew Bible that when Herod asked where any possible "born king" of divine origin was to be located, they were able to say "Bethlehem, that is where." Now Jesus was an extraordinary Person. He could not have orchestrated His own birth that way. That is unless He truly is the pre-existing and ever existing eternal God.The prophecies concerning Him giving Himself as a atoneing sacrifice for sinners came in centries earlier. How can I say that Isaiah 53 does not expound on the ministry of Jesus ?How could He have arranged for His own crucifixion the way it happened in fulfillment of the prophecies ? How could He orchestrate these details to make it seem that He was the target of so many Old Testament prophecies.If you're not familiar with these prophecies it may be easy to have the skeptical ignorance of bliss. Coincidence is not a strong argument.So we have in the New Testament much more then a situation of "It is authoritative because it says it is authoritative." You have far too many details outside of the control of the Man which lined up in such a way as to argue for fulfillment of prophecy by God.You see, that is one of the advantages of having a book which took 1,600 years to complete. It can build up a track record of prophetic fulfillment. I came to Jesus first. At first I was too proud to read the Bible. I read Christian philosophy instead. But I had no grounding in the Bible to really understand what these philosophers were trying to say. Then something said to me "Well, you humbled yourself to believe in Jesus. Why not also humble yourself to read the Bible."So I began to read the paraphrase English version called "Good News For Modern Man". That was a popular New Testament paraphrase in the 60s.That was the beginning of a life long adventure. I still had a big filter on. I was not going to believe everything so fast. I think it was the integrity of the main Person, Jesus Christ, that led to my believing that His credibility was above questioning.Decieved people, liars, and crazy people who are under delusions of graduer, simply do not act and teach as Jesus did. So by way of gradual process, I came to accept that the whole Bible must fall or stand together.Having said that, I would say that sometimes it is a labor to discern what ACTUALLY is being SAID as opposed to what TRADITIOALLY is believed to be being said.So getting at the accurate translation is important to me. But the integrity of Jesus, the honesty and moral superiority of His personality and the sober mindedness of His thought, concinved me that I was dealing with the SANE truth in this Bible. I am still thinking on that one. I don't believe that I am 100% free from being deceived. I think if I were not still deceived in at least some areas, my life would be different.I think I would not waste a moment apart from the enjoyment of Jesus if I were not still distracted by the lie. The lies still distract me some otherwisee I would be as absolute as a John or Paul or Peter or many more contemporary Christians who seem to me to have been freed from all bribe.Christ is too wonderful not to be true. People would not invent a character like Jesus Christ. It is not in mankind to want to concoct someone as absolute for truth as Jesus was.We are all out for out own skin, eventually. Jesus was totally absolute for the will of His Father. I think His absoluteness argues that He knew what reality was. You seem to me to misunderstand many things I wrote here over the years.God became man so that man might become God in life and in nature, only not in His Godhead. Would God want to share ETERNITY with one who is trash?Christ is said to be the Firstborn among many brothers. That is why the Onlybegotten Son of God is eventually also called the Firstborn Son of God. God wants to mass produce sons of God. And that is exceedingly valuable to Him and to man.The saved were predestinated to be sons of God before the foundation of the world according to Ephesians chapter 1. That means that we are so meaningful that before God laid the foundation of the world, before He created the universe He planned a glorious destiny for His sons.This means that the universe was created for Christ and the sons of God. This means that man is not trash. This means that man is very meaningful,Now, your homies like Dawkins and Hitchens, they may teach you that we are nothing but shaved apes. Your biological heavies might tell you that we are likely to be outlived by cock roaches.You athiest cosmologiest are likely to tell you that we are on a second rate planet in a second rate galaxy which is doomed to disperse into the eternal night as ashes. Those heros may tell you that man means little or nothing.But not Jesus the Son of God. So get your facts right. If man were no so important God would not have become a man in Jesus.So go check with you homie Charles Darwin and see if humanity is worth more in his system. You're just an accident to your boy Darwin.Life is far more valuable in God's economy then in any human philosophy that I have seen. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't think that is all I wrote. The changes in my life since that time I called on the name of Jesus, I know, I could not have done myself. If I had been able to I would have done so.We have communities all over the globe on the five continents. I don't offer this as proof of truth. But it is very confirming when you can meet together on a Sunday with Korean speaking, Chinese speaking, Spanish speaking, English speaking believers. And the one joy and fellowship runs through the congregation. We are all in the same experience. And over the five continents the oneness of experience is very confirming.Obviously something is being exprienced which transcends culture and nationality here.Proof of truth ? Maybe not completely. But the unity is confirming. You are just going to have to decide for yourself.
I would not ask you to put your trust in me. I would say you should put your trust in Jesus. If I did not say it, I'll say it now. We have a faith. You know to me the most impressive person who ever lived spoke the most about "faith".I know that modern man thinks of faith as a poor stepchild, a beggarly substitute for scientific knowledge. But I am very impressed with the power of the personality of Jesus Christ. And He spoke very much about faith.Proof leaves something for man to boast about. Proof leaves man something for his pride. Faith leaves nothing for the proud to point to themselves and boast "Look what I did. Look what I know."So I am happy to admit that I have a faith. Now I really admire Einstien, Newton, Hawking, Von Neuman, and many other scientists. I really admire thier labors on what they can prove with mathematics. That has its place.But the sheer impact of Jesus of Nazareth impresses me more. And Jesus spoke much and demonstrated much about "faith in God".I admit that I have a faith. You needn't feel sorry for me. On one end is our faith. But on the other end is God's FAITHFULNESS. . It is not the Christian's faith in a vacuum. It is the Christian's faith plus the FAITHFULNESS of God that is so convincing. For what purpose? Simply for entertainment value?Eleven disciples hiding out behind closed doors, scarred to death that they were the next to be nailed to a Roman cross. Suddenly, they are willing to give their lives for something they believe, that is that their Master Jesus has been raised from the dead.A campfire story did that ?Come on guy. I went to YMCA camp and they told us young kids that if you ring the lunch bell at midnight, the headless man would come out of the woods.But this story didn't spread around the world, last for 2000 years, and have its originators go to lions dens, torture stakes, crosses, and persecutions believing the account unto death.Your notion that the New Testament came into being only for entertainment value requires more of a blind leap of faith then I am able to muster. Do you have a more plausible theory then the camp fire story one ? How about this. How about Someone coming along who is so impressive that a ban of associates decide that this is really a big deal. How about some people saying " You know this is really big. This is so big that I think I'll drop everything and devote the rest of my life to tell the world about this."Is it too hard to conceive that somebody could have so much impact on witnesses that they wanted the world to know about Him ? "Moreover indeed many other signs also Jesus did before His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." (John 20:21)"And there ae also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself could contain the books written." (John 21:25)How about Someone coming along, whose impact on His pupils is so strong that it was cataclysmic. They simply had to devote the remainder of thier lives to tell the world after them of this Person who said He was Son of God.Possible? Any room for that possibility in your musings ? Imaginary friend. Okay. How can I now deal with this ? You're pretty tough. Let's try this on the "imaginary friend" theory.I use to love to be a morally unclean person. No "FRIEND" of mine could interfere in this favorite passtime. In fact I also loved to steal musical equipment when I played in bands. No "FRIEND" of mine could convince me that I should not steal something that I thought I needed more than the other guy.There were many other things of which I am not ashamed to confess. But if you wanted to be MY friend, you better leave me alone about those things. It was no one's business.Now, one day, a LORD intefered with my program of fornication, stealing, lying, and many other wrong doings. This Lord showed me that God was more enjoyable then the enjoyment of my slavery to my iniquities.This was not "FRIENDSHIP" was much more of a LORDSHIP of someone able to subdue me, a most stubburn and self willed sinner. His gentleness conquered me. He looked beyong my faults and saw my needs. He alone could do an inside job on my personality like no friend ever could.The Lord was not always perceived as a friend. the Lord sometimes appeared to me as a nuisance. The Lord appeared to me as one interfering in my program. Then this LORD convinced me that there is an enjoyment which surpasses the wrong things from which I derived enjoyment.Your concept of a sentimental invisible friend rings hallow to me. I would have to say with Jesus the definition of "friend" has to be greatly updated. Or I would have to say that the "LORD Jesus" is not your typical sentimental concept of a friend, pandering, permissive, flattering.I have never had a loved one or worldly "friend" of the caliber of Christ.And if this is just imaginary friendship, the autobiographies of such a phenomonon are plentiful. George Muller has answers to thousands of practical prayers in his faith establishment of orphanages. I don't think these many solid answers to his prayers were do to self hypnotism or an imaginary friend.I knew a kid who was in an car accident that threw him into a sever coma. When he awoke from the coma he knew Jesus Christ. Something happened to him on a deep level beyond typical consiousness.When I regularly practice offering a portion of my financial wealth to some ministry to spread the Gospel, I do not have financial problems. When I horde and have a hard heart towards giving of my substance, I usually have problems of all kinds.But when I exercise faith to give a portion to God's work, it is as reliable as the law of gravity, my needs are taken care of. I have seen a professional accountant stake his reputation on that fact that giving unto the ministry of God, like clockwork, opens the door to receiving a steady supply of your needs met.I don't think an fictitious "invisible friend" is doing this. Rather I think this is man's faith on one side and God's FAITHFULNESS on the other testifying that His word is real. If you have some formulas to demonstrate this beyond all shadow of doubt, let's have them from you. Then the discussion is over. Isn't it ?IF you want to be consistent with your philosophical approach, it is not whatever floats my boat. If it is a lie then you should say that it should be discarded even if it does "float my boat."So if you know Jesus is not Lord, don't tell me "Whatever floats your boat." Give me your mathematical formulas proving beyond all shadow of doubt that Jesus is not Son of God.Get your formulas published and educate the human race of the non-reality of God. What are you waiting for ? It rarely is the point the unbeliever makes. You tell me all about what you DON'T believe. Fine. Do you have something you think is more real ?Has it stood the test of time as the Gospel of Christ has ?
Has it stood the test of persecution as the Gospel of Christ has?
Has it been sliced and diced and carved up and chopped up and scrutinized, examined, debunked from by a thousand capable minds, and it still is a vital attraction through all these attacks.The bible has been sliced and diced and chopped by some of the keenest minds. It is still a best seller in more languages then any other book in existence.Two thousand years and we'er still proclaiming that Jesus Christ is alive and available. Whose the next heroic destroyer of the Christian faith after the Olympian efforts of Voltaire, David Hume, Fredrich Nietchize, Betrand Russell and Anthony Flew and Christopher Hitchens ?Whose up to bat next ? Jesus is Lord. You're the deluded one. You don't know what worship is to me. I worship while I sleep.
My worship is the live in the realm and sphere of the avialiable Christ. You have no idea whatsoever what it means for me to worship the Triune God.I drink Him. I breath Him. I swim in Him. We have a kingdom to build. A MAN is on the throne of this universe.You may want to miss all the fun. I don't.Yes I am a fool for Jesus Christ. Whose fool are you ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Yes. You have a point. However, this group of people also wanted to stone Moses and appoint someone else to lead them back the Egypt, "the iron furnace" of their slavery.If for a season they turned on Moses to stone him to death, it is not implausible that they might turn on their Messiah too. I don't mind. I can always preach another one. Hold on here. I just got accused of being conceited. Now I have a hatred for myself. You guys want to make up your minds?And for me hating my fellow man ? Well, the Lord knows I will continue my prayers for some of you.I guess that's because of my "hatred" for my fellow man, huh ? And you can provide me a QUOTATION that that led you to that conclusion. Here's your chance to shine.QUOTE ME. Where did I say of give the impression that I GROVEL each morning before God.God is not interested in your groveling. He is interested in your believing. You needn't grovel for forgiveness. You only need to believe and thank God that Christ has died and rose. That's all.See, now you need a little sermon. Look at this passage: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) Please pay attention to this. The emphasis on the word RIGHTEOUS is mine. The verse says that if we believers in Jesus confess our sins God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins.It is the RIGHTEOUS thing for Him to do. He has to forgive because righteousness is the foundation of God's throne. And because Christ has accomplished redemption, it is RIGHETOUS for God to look upon the one believing in Christ as totally forgiven.Now God is merciful for sure. But interestingly, this verse does not say God is faithful and merciful to forgive us. Neither does it say if we confess God has great PITY on us to forgive us.As a matter of fact it doesn't even say God has to like us. Whether He likes me or doesn't like me, to be true His own RIGHTEOUSNESS, He must forgive me.I can say "God. I am not here to grovel. I am here to tell you that because Your Son has died a redemptive death on Calvary, You HAVE to forgive me. Whether you like me or not, it is the RIGHTEOUS thing for you to do." So, my wise guy, God is not interested in your groveling. He is interested in your realizing the JUSTICE has been imputed on your behalf in the death of Christ. He just wants you to BELIEVE.Groveling is not needed. Neither does your tears cleanse away you sins. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses away your sins. Our part is simply to believe, to receive and give thanks. I may open up a thread to express how I would answer some of the charges of Chris Hitchens. I've heard plenty of his debates.I might like to speak out how I would address some of the charges of Christopher Hitchens.Anyway, remember one thing from this post. God is not interested in your BEGGING or GROVELING. He simply awaits your believing. Believe and give thanks for what Christ has done.And see what grace and power are released into your soul as a result of your simply believing.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The OP states: For those of you who are suspicious that the Bible's "inspiration" could be from Satan, I have a few questions.1.) Why would Satan want me to believe in Satan's final defeat and eternal punishment ? "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone, where also the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 14:10) How would it be advantageous to the devil that his defeat be predicted ?2.) What advantage to the devil would it be to speak of the eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels? "Then He [Christ] will say to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)How does it serve the devil's purposes that I know that an eternal punishment has been prepared for the devil and his angels ?3.) How does it serve Satan's purposes that I be taught that the Son of God came to destroy the works of the Devil ? " For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8) 4.) How does it serve Satan's purposes for me to be taught that Christ came to destroy the one " who has the might of death, the devil" ? " He [Christ] also Himself in like manner partook of the same [blood and flesh] that through death He might destroy him that has the might of death, that is, the devil." (Hebrews 2:14) What advantage to the Deceiver would this be to trick us to believe that the Son of God is the destroyer of his might of death ?5.) Of what advantage to the Devil would it be for me to see that he is cast down from making accusations against God's people ? "Now has come salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night." ( Rev. 12:10) What benefit could Satan derive from having me expect his accusations against God's people to be silenced ?6.) Of what advantage is it for Satan to deceive me that we Christians overcome Satan by the blood of Christ ? "And they overcame him [the devil] by the blood of the Lamb ..." (Rev. 12:11) 7.) Of what advantage would it be to Satan to deceptively inform the Christian church that he [satan] will only have a short time left to work during the great tribulation ? "Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea becaise the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev.:12) 8.) Of what advantage to Satan would it be to clue us that to love Christ above our own soul lives would be the way to overcome Satan? "And they overcame Him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:11) 9.) Of what advantage would it be to Satan to deceptively have Jesus teach that the Devil,"the ruler of the world" HAD NOTHING IN HIM [Jesus] ? "I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and in Me he has nothing." (John 14:30) 10.) Of what advantage would it be to Satan to have Paul write that no power or principality present or to come would ever be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ ? "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38,39) I expect that someone will respond with some very fancy conspiracy theories.However, these are all exceedingly self defeating teachings for the Devil to have purposely used to enfluence the Christians.These ten points above and multitudes more like them do not persuade me that Jesus Christ and His victory are the invention of the Devil to somehow support a God opposing agenda.PS. None of these points argues that the Devil has not TWISTED the interpretation of the Bible to serve his own evil deceptive purposes. That action has been both predicted and occured massively.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The goats are not Christ's followers. This is spoken to the goats : " Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the the devil and his angels. " (v.41) That is ALL we need to be told to know that they are not redeemed by Jesus Christ, are not forgiven, and are not saved, therefore are not His followers or His people. They are no more His people then "the devil and his angels" whom they will join in the eternal fire: "And these [goats] will go away into eternal punishment ..." (v.46) They on the left, as the goats are in constrast to "the righteous" therefore they are in no means justified by Christ - "And these [goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46) This above is not a statement on who "the righteous" are. At this point it is only important to note that those in contrast to "the righteous" are condemned, and that not temporarily but eternally. So they emphatically are not followers of Christ. You are talking now with me, jaywill. And I say the "sheep" neither represent Christians.These "sheep" on the right hand of Christ share with the "goats" on the left hand that they did not know who Christ was. The people who are Christ's would have to be in the third group mentioned which is "the least of these my brothers".Therefore there are not TWO groups in the teaching but THREE:1.) The sheep on the right of Christ.
2.) The goats on the left of Christ.
3.) These - the least of these Christ's brothers.The sheep (group #1) are judged for their treatment of the brothers of Christ down to the least of them (group #3)Likewise, the goats (group #2) are also judged according to their treatment of Christ's brothers, down to the least of them (group #3).Groups #1 and #2 are rewarded according to thier treatment of group #3.Both, the sheep and the goats are made up of "the Gentiles". The word there, "the nations" is the same word for translating "the Gentiles". So this teaching is about Christ judging "the Gentiles".We must note that the nations, the Gentiles are said to be the sheep of God's hand in the Old Testament - "Make a joyful noise to Jehovah, ALL THE EARTH. Serve Jehovah with rejoicingl Come before His presence with joyful singing.

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Know that it is Jwehovah who is God; It is He who has made us and not we ourselves. We are His people and the SHEEP of His pasture." (Psalm 100:1-3)All the earth, all the Gentiles, are the sheep of God. It is only that those who in the end times sell themelves to be Antichrist's, renounce God the Creator and are goats persecuting God's people who are not permitted to buy or sell anything in the great tribulation. These brothers of Christ of the Jews and Christians will be imprisoned, destitute, homeless, without food, without medicine, sick, driven into hiding, scattered and hunted by a government that is hostile to all Theism, will be shuned by the goats.But the sheep who are kind to these persecuted brothers of Christ will be saved to be the nations in the millennial kingdom over whom the elect of God will reign.This teaching of the reward of the unkowing sheep could possibly a fulfillment of Christ's words about some receiving a prophet's reward because of kindness to a prophet: "He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

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And whoever gives to one of these little ones only a cup of water to drink in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Matthew 10:41)The believers in Jesus who overcome to live victorious lives are promised to reign with Christ. It does not make sense that they would reign over one another. There must be some people on the earth over which these sons of God may reign. The sheep who are kind to the persecuted brothers of Jesus, in the end times, will be those people.Neither the sheep nor the goats seem to know who Christ is. It is possible that by that time it will be hard to find a New Testament. Perhaps in the realm of the Antichrist, Bibles are banned.Those sympathetic to the Antichrist, will persecute these troublesome persecuted brothers of Christ left on the earth during that time. Other people will be sheep, who though they know not Christ, are listening to their God given conscience and the proclamation of fearing God the Creator, which "eternal gospel" is announced not by the Christian church, but by an angel/s in the air (Rev. 14:6,7)Please notice that this "eternal gospel" announced during the great tribulation is one of fearing God the Creator. It is not the gospel of Christ's redemption preached throughout the church age by the Lord's disciples.The Antichrist will proclaim himself as God. The nations that follow the Antichrist will become the goats. The nations that do not, though they do not know Christ, they respect God the Creator and fear to persecute the godly people who are being hounded, hunted, and imprisoned by Antichrist and his government.When Jesus decends in the Holy Land, He will judge the nations that are left alive at His coming. There will be three groups:1.) The Sheep who were considerate of His persecuted brothers and feared God the Creator.2.) The Goats who regarded Antichrist as their Leader and were against all other theists, especially the Christians and Jews.3.) These the least of them, all the Lord's brothers. People belonging to Christ from elect Jews to be made to recongnize the Messiah and the Christians.Jar's idea that the goats are Christians is totally fallacious.
Jar is correct if he assumes that neither the goats or the sheep are aware of who Jesus Christ is.And jar would be correct to point out that the sheep are justified to God on other grounds then typically outlined in the Gospel as preached by the apostles.It does not say that the sheep were saved because they confessed Jesus as Lord, whom they did not know. However, given supplying information about the end times, it would appear that they responded to "the eternal gospel" to fear God the Creator. Instead of following Antichrist they feared God the Creator who by that time will be turning the creation upside down in supernatural calamities.They are kind to the persecuted people of Christ - His brothers down to the least.The Sheep cannot themselves be the brothers of the Lord Jesus. This is because being sick and imprisoned and persecuted as the brothers will be they would have no opportunity to do themselves good.Jar has terribly twisted this passage. I will wait for his further response before adding additional evidence that he is twisting the meaning of the passage. That both the sheep and the goats are surprised, I have no argument against. Jar is correct that the sheep are surprised.It should be noted that mankind originally created was created to enjoy the kingdom of God's good earth. For this reason these sheep will be restored to the condition of Adam before his fall.At that time neutral Adam who was created "very good" was given to enjoy the kingdom prepared for man "from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34)The sons of God who are organically made brothers of Jesus Christ enjoy something more. That is the inheritance perpared for them BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5)The sons of God have an inheritance prepared for them BEFORE the foundation of the world.The sheep have a kingdom prepared for their enjoyment FROM the foundation of the world.Herein is another difference. The son of God in the millennium must have some nations to reign over. The sheep will be transfered from this age into that coming age of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.This judgement in Matthew 25 is NOT the last judgment of mankind which occures 1,000 years afterwards at the Great White Throne in Revelation 20. This judgment of Matthew 25 is only of the living Gentiles, the still living nations, who are on the earth at the time Christ sets up the throne of His glory in Jerusalem after the great tribulation. This is convoluted and terribly in error.If jar wanted to point out that Judgement begins at the House of God and that His people receive rewards and punishment, there are other passages much better to demonstrate that.In his eagerness to justify unbelievers and condemn believers in Christ jar has terribly twisted Matthew 25:31-46. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I will have to double check some other teachers on some aspects of what I wrote above.Mainly, the goats. It could be that I am mistaken on this point:The GOATS, I am not sure are followers of Antichrist or simply people not under the government of Antichrist, who do nothing at the persecution OF Antichrist at the brothers of Christ.I need to study this matter further. At any rate the goats are not Christians. They are either the subjects of the Antichrist at the end times OR though not in his government are not symphathetic to the refugee people of Christ who are persecuted and driven into exile BY Antichrist and his government.The notion that Antichrist will reign over all the earth, is, I think an error. He will have a realm and refugees will be trying to escape that realm.The sympathy or lack OF sympathy will be a deciding factor of how Christ will deal with nations upon the establishing of His throne in Israel.

Before I comment further on how to interpret Matthew 25:31-46 first I would say, many people use this passage to talk about humanitarian acts done towards people in need.I have no objection to this passage being applied in that way. If some are inspired by this passage to perform acts of kindness towards needy peoples, that is very good. But I regard that as an application of the teaching. When it comes to the interpretation of the teaching, I regard this as a prophecy about the events of Christ's second coming. "But WHEN the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, AT THAT TIME He will sit on the throne of His glory." (v.31 my emphasis). This is a prophetic passage of something that will occur. If it is a parable it is a parable in a prophecy of something historical to occur.But I do not intend to take the wind out of anyone's sails who is inspired by Matthew 25:31-46 to be merciful, whether they are or not followers of Christ.Jar objects to my interpretation of the prophecy: It also says that the angels are with Him. This proves that it does not have to explicitly mention where all those who are present at this event are. It mentions those on the left and on the right. There could be others there.For example, since this is in the holy land, those who are saved by Him of neither those on the left or right could also be present.Indeed, it could be an event like the prophecy of Daniel 7:9-10"I watched Until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow and the hair of His head was like pure wool;

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His throne was flames of fire, its wheels, burning fire. A stream of fire issued forth And came out from before Him.

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Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him." (See Daniel 7:9,10) My only point is that this eschatological scene has thousands ministering to the Divine One on His throne and ten thousands of ten thousands standing before Him.So it could be with Matthew 25:31-46. The focus is mainly on those before Christ on the left and on the right. There may be others at the event of whom it is not told exactly where they stand, for example we see the angels are with Him (v.31). But no special attention is given to discribe where they are "with Him". No, they could not. For it makes no sense that the brothers down to the least would be those being banished away into the eternal fire that the goats are sent to.Why would Christ be concerned for the care of them by good deeds when they are only about to suffer eternally ? Those about to be banished by Christ are ones He DISOWNS rather than owns.The least of these my brothers are OWNED by Jesus and not DISOWNED.Neither does it make much sense that the least of these His brothers are of the "sheep." If they are destitute and in prison they would have no opportunity to take care of themselves let alone anyone else.In the Scripture the world is divided into three classes of people: the Jews, the church, and the nations. In Matthew 24 and 25 the eschatological dealing with the Jews and the church have already been touched by Christ. The remaining section, 25:31-46 deals with what will happen to the nations. Some erroneously regard Matthew 25:31-46 as a Universal Judgment. This is erroneous because any universal judgment should include the Jews, the church, and both the LIVING and the DEAD of the nations. This teaching only speaks of the living nations as being judged. The dead from ages past are not mentioned at all.The thought of one grand universal judgment is an misunderstanding of the Bible. The Bible does not teach of a grand universal judgment.The Bible speaks of judgment dispensed by God severally. For example there is definitely a judgment before the millennial kingdom and one after it a thousands years latter. Compare Revelation 11:18 with 20:12-15.Notice the words "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." (20:5). And this was spoken immediately after this: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment wa given to them ..." (20:4)Obviously you have a judgment before the millennial kingdom to determine the status of some during that time. And you have a judgment AFTER the thousand years are completed starting with Revelation 20:11. You have a judgment at the commencement of the millennial kingdom when Christ sits on the throne of His glory in the Holy Land immediately after His second coming (Matt. 25:31-46). This is a judgment of the living nations. And then you have after the thousand years are completed, of the dead - "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their deeds." (20:12)Christ is the judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim. 41; Rom 2:16). However He is not the judge of the living and the dead at the same time or in one universal judgment. WHO is to be judged in Matthew 25:31-46? It is "all the nations" (v.32) This word is the same as that translated in the 1901 ASV as [b]"Gentiles" in [b]4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18 and 20:19,25.This judgment of "all the nations" is the same as refered to in the parable of the net cast into the sea in Matthew 13:47-50 which I will not expound at this time. But the two sections refer to the same event.There are three parables in Matthew 13 which regard Christ's dealing respectively with the Jewish nation (13:44), the Christian church (13:45,46), and the Gentile nations alive at His second coming (13:47-50).The last parable about the good and the bad fishes being separated corresponds to Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and goats being separated.The Gentile nations who are not Jews or Christians and who are alive when Christ returns physically to earth, will be good or bad fishes, or sheep or goats. WHEN is this judgment of Matthew 25:31-46? It is before the millennial kingdom (v.34). This is not the same judgment of the great white throne to occur after the millennial kingdom in Revelation 20. WHERE is this judgment to occur ? The throne is on earth upon which the Son of Man sits. It is Christ's throne on earth during the millennial kingdom. If it is in heaven or in the air that would mean that all the nations would have to be raptured to appear before His judgment throne.This is His glorious earthly throne set up in the Holy Land.In Revelation 20, the earth and heaven flee away from before the face of the one seated on His judgment throne. No place is found for earth or heaven and it seems that millions or billions are suspended in space before Christ and God - (Rev. 20:11)"And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them." (v.11) Furthermore this judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 preceeds the throwing of Satan into the eternal fire. That is because Satan is throne into that punishment after the thousand years are completed. But Matthew 25:41 says the eternal fire has been "prepared" for the Devil and his angels. Since this punishement has been "prepared" for the Devil it proves that he has not yet been cast into that place.Where else in the Bible can it be demonstrated that something is "prepared" for someone, yet they are already there ?Furthermore, the appellation "the Son of Man" is a name used in connection with the millennial kingdom. After the millennium, the Son "will deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father" (1 Cor. 15:24) The prophecy must be interpreted with other prophecies. And it fits what we are told about several judgments.I'll stop here for now. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Some readers may notice that I erased a comment about jar's teaching which I decided I would keep to myself. He has a right to an interpretation of the passage. Though I do not feel he has adaquately addressed the weaknesses of it I have provided. The name of this game is to divide and separate the relevant passages about Christ's return to pretend they have nothing to do with each other.We know from other passages that Jesus Christ will sit in judgment in Israel in the Holy Land: JOEL 3:12 - "Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat. For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.

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Send forth the sickle, For the harvest is ripe; Come tread, for the winepress is full; the wine vats overflow, for the evil is great ..."For THERE - in the valley of Jehoshaphat, will God sit in judgment.
Jesus is God incarnate.A comparison with the book of Revelation and the Battle of Armageddon indicates that God will judge nations in Israel in the huge valley of Jehoshaphat. I have spoken to someone who is visited that place. They declared that it is a very large expanse of land.There, we believe Jesus will gather untold numbers to be judged - sheep and goats.Joel continues - "Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision; For the day of Jehovah has drawn near in the valley of decision. " A little further on Joel continues with this: "And Jehovah will roar from Zion, And from Jerisalem he will utter His voice, and the heavens and the earth will shake..

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But Jehovah will be a shelter to His people and a stronghold to the people of Israel.

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Thus you will know that I am Jehovah your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain." (Joel 3:16-17a) This is very practical and locatable. Christ, Who is God incarnate, will set the throne of His glory and judgment in Israel.When He roars from Zion all who are alive on earth at that time should want to be on the right side of those tremendous utterances. This is not terribly relevant I think. We agreed on this already. It doesn't establish jar's interpretation as a whole. It is only one part that is correct.When you come to jar's point about the goats being Christians, you can smell the deception. It makes no sense.I suppose this is just his way of saying that he knows Christians who he considers not as generous as himself. That may be true but it doesn't justify his faulty exegesis. This too has already been agreed to by me. Neither the sheep nor the goats knew much about Christ.Thier judgment here is not based on them knowing Christ. It is based on their treatment of those of His brothers. His brothers know who He is most likely.If this is jar's attempt to teach the brotherhood of all men - ie. all men are Jesus' brothers, this is not a good place to argue that. In Matthew Christ goes to the cross to shed His blood for the forgiveness of sinners.If some sinners are ignorant as to that covenant, as would be expected under the God hating reign of Antichrist, it is not surprising that they are forgiven or condemned based on something else besides the new covenant to which they were kept ignorant.Once again, we are told that in those last days, when God is shaking the creation and Antichrist is threatening all to worship him or starve to death, some of the world will realize that the true CREATOR God must be the one respnsible for the supernatural calamities: "And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on theearth, over every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

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Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters." (Rev. 14:6,7) I will not take the time now to show that this supernatural announcement is right in the middle of the time of great tribulation as indicated by the enire 14th chapter of Revelation. It suffices to say that this announcement is designed to neutralize the deceptive activity of the Antichrist and his false prophet duringt that time.It should also be pointed out that Romans 1 says that men are without excuse to not believe in God the Creator of the creation. Here, at least, in one portion of the Bible, we can see that some not knowing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, may be saved because of the fearing of the judgment of God the Creator of the universe.Apparently, along with this fear also comes a conscience informed desire to help the refugees persecuted by Antichrist, who cannot live because his evil government intends to starve out all those who do not acknowledge Antichrist as the only god.These portions have to be considered together. Matthew and Revelation and Joel have to be placed together to get a fuller picture. That's jar's blindness and unbelief.
That is his fertile imagination to ALWAYS come up with some plausible doubt about prophecies which a great many Bible scholars agree have been fulfilled.He is just baosting that he can find some loophole to always protest that such and such was not fulfilled.I am not impressed with this kind of exercise from the skeptic's rejection factory imagination. Career skeptics like jar will always come up with some reason to cast doubt on fulfilled prophecy.This is also a subtle attempt to shift the discussion to be about "No such thing as fulfilled prophecy". This is a self defeating argument. If there is no fulfilled prophecy then jar's expectation that the so called Christian "goats" and "sheep" (whoever he imagines them to be) will never come before Christ and never be judged.So in rejecting all fulfillment of prophecy jar rejects his own interpretation as to what Jesus is saying will happen, becasue that is OBVIOUSLY what Jesus is teaching about - "WHEN the Son of Man comes ..." Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.