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Author Topic:   Who is really in charge of inspiration?
ringo
Member
Posts: 16241
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 31 of 110 (587944)
10-21-2010 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
10-21-2010 11:37 AM


Re: You Can Fool Some Of The People....
Phat writes:

Upon further reflection, I concluded that we don't know. And I concluded that it is ok not to know, as long as one trusts that God knows and is living and active.


That makes it even worse though. At least the Bible can be tested against reality. We can verify what is truth and what is error or lies. But you're trusting the conman implicitly without any possibility of testing. You might as well trust me when I tell you to send me all of your money and I'll double it by the end of the week.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-21-2010 11:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 32 of 110 (587948)
10-21-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Nij
10-21-2010 1:23 AM


Believers in the Quran, the Vedas, the teachings of Buddhism, Sikhism, Daoism could easily give the same answer.
So such a method is inconclusive in determining whether it's the right god.

Okay. But notice that you did not answer my question to you. Did you?

Let me try again. If God is a reality and if God were to appear on earth in the form of a man, WHO among all human beings who have walked the earth, would you say is the most likely candidate to be that God ?

Who acted like God the most ?
Who most definitely claimed to be God come as a man ?

So while you submit that it is easy for a Moslem to say what I say, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist all to claim assuredness Who do you think confirms that God came among us here on the earth ?

Do you wish to avoid having to address this simple question ? If so, why ?


Besides that, how do you know it is the God you say you believe in doing that? What tells you that it isn't the devil or Basement Cat or a repeat of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's intoxication making you feel good about doing something?

I think that anything leading me to truly trust in Christ is probably of God. Anything dampaning my appetite for Jesus is probably not of God.

What causes me to dive deeper into the enjoyment of this Spirit of Christ is probably of God. If a teaching tends to reduce my appetite for God, dampen my love of Jesus, turn me away from Jesus and the brothers in Christ, or feeds a reliance on words opposing those of Christ, is probably of the enemy Satan.

Now, I have a question for you. The New Testament has these words -

And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil.

For everyone who practices evil hates the light, and does not come to the light lest his works be reproved.

But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-20)

How do you know that your suspicion at the idea of Christ being the truth is not do to you loving spiritual "darkness" ? How do you know that you simply like your life of sinning and are reluctant to see any need for forgiveness and rescue, pardon and empowering to enjoy God instead of your evil works ?

There was a time when I loved my sinful life. Christians got on my nerves. What made it worst was I didn't think there was any other way to live. So I might as well embrace my sins and resign myself to the fact that this is just the way I would always have to live. I loved the darkness rather than the light.

How do you know that you are not just posturing about assurance when really you are one who "hates the light" and are unwilling to "come to the light" because your deeds would be reproved by God ?


No, I am not talking about tolerance. I am talking about how why any firm believer can be sure that their god(s) is/are the correct god(s) on the basis of "this book says so". I'll thank you not to drive this off-topic.

I have tried to show you that it is not simply a matter of finding a book which says "This is by God" so it must be of God.

There is something more here. There is the testimony of a man, Jesus of Nazareth. If academy awards were to be given out to human beings who spoke and acted as God would be expected to speak and act, I think Jesus would have to get an oscar.

Is there someone else who you think offers a serious challenge to a man who manifests God in the flesh, who would you submit casts doubt on Jesus Christ being most qualified to probably being that Divine Person ?

He wanted nothing for Himself. He wanted everything for His Father. There is no trace of Him securing anything for Himself. He lived unto His Father. He died unto His Father. He did not even call for the legions of angels to defend Him from His persecutors, which at least He Himself firmly believed He could have done.

There as nothing of SELF there. His absoluteness argues for His having the true truth of life. And I think because of this total lack of self interest and self preservation, God, the truth vindicated Him and has given Him a name above every other name.

"[Christ] Who existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped,

But emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becomming in the likeness of men;

And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becomming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross.

Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:6-11)

I've made a decision. You, Nij, you have to make a decision about this.

If you think Jesus is not Son of God and Krishna or Mohammed or Allen Watts or Halle Salasi are more likely to be telling the true truth, then you run with that.

I think Christ is more believable.


So, once again: how do you tell that your god is the real or true one instead of just a deception?

And once again, I think time will tell.

I will tell you this, If I do turn out to be wrong about the Son of God Jesus, I will have no regrets whatsoever. Believing in Him and enjoying Him is the best possible life I could have hoped to have lived on the earth.

No regrets whatsoever. If I had to live life all over again, I'd say "Give me Jesus again, only this time SOONER."

Can you say that about your doubting philosophy ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Nij, posted 10-21-2010 1:23 AM Nij has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 2:40 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 34 by hooah212002, posted 10-21-2010 3:04 PM jaywill has responded

  
Damouse
Member (Idle past 2984 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


(1)
Message 33 of 110 (587953)
10-21-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jaywill
10-21-2010 2:19 PM


Fluff
Who acted like God the most ?
Who most definitely claimed to be God come as a man ?

The majority of your post is begging the question.

You say that jesus was god, and he made one hell of a god. This jesus, he told you all about god.

Now you sit here and say that because youve heard so much about god from the one who people call god, youve noticed that the person telling the story seems remarkably godlike.

He's telling the story. Of course he fits the role.

I will tell you this, If I do turn out to be wrong about the Son of God Jesus, I will have no regrets whatsoever. Believing in Him and enjoying Him is the best possible life I could have hoped to have lived on the earth.

I find the fact that youd rather live your life worshiping a lie that you knew was false disgusting.

Debate should attempt to find the truth, and youve just confessed that the truth is not as important to you as is an imaginary fix. Im filled with revulsion.

Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 2:19 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 4:01 PM Damouse has responded

    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 34 of 110 (587962)
10-21-2010 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jaywill
10-21-2010 2:19 PM


Who acted like God the most ?
Who most definitely claimed to be God come as a man ?

Who embodied Harry Potter the most? The character in the Harry Potter books, that's who. This says diddly about the source of inspiration or the authenticity of the bible. All you are saying is "well, the bible tells of a character who says he is god and says he acted like the god the book describes, so he must be god because he says so". Except, you are already assuming that YOUR particular book is 100% correct.

I think that anything leading me to truly trust in Christ is probably of God. Anything dampaning my appetite for Jesus is probably not of God.

I think one of the points of this thread is: how do you know for certain you haven't been tricked and the "god" you worship isn't really god at all, but some trickster?

I will tell you this, If I do turn out to be wrong about the Son of God Jesus, I will have no regrets whatsoever. Believing in Him and enjoying Him is the best possible life I could have hoped to have lived on the earth.

No regrets whatsoever. If I had to live life all over again, I'd say "Give me Jesus again, only this time SOONER."

Really? You actually enjoy being a POS? You enjoy being a sub-human? A worthless piece of trash? Almost daily you post about how shitty of a person you are just because your invisible friend tells you that you are. I can't believe you would wish to go through that again.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 2:19 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 4:42 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 35 of 110 (587972)
10-21-2010 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Damouse
10-21-2010 2:40 PM


Re: Fluff
The majority of your post is begging the question.

The question is really "How do I [Nij] know ?"

My answers as to how I know will probably met with unbelief. Right ? Sure they will. So the conversation goes like this:

jaywill: "Here's how I know I am on the right track - "

Nij: "I don't believe that."

So I did say "Time will tell." Now why do you object to me saying time will tell ?

Some wise person once said "No lie can live forever." So if I concede that in the last analysis only TIME will indicate where the truth really is, why do you object to that ?

I gave you no proof with mathematical certainty that Jesus is the truth. So, I'd quite while your're ahead if I were you.


You say that Jesus was god, and he made one hell of a god. This jesus, he told you all about god.

I think the New Testament is way to candid to be false propoganda. There are too many things in it which would be encremenating of the disciples had they been trying to put fiction over as fact.

If there were twelve fishermen who concocted a fictional person and invented words for his mouth and deeds to be his, there is simply too many other things that a smart propogandist should have excluded.

The candidness of the Gospels argue for their authenticity. Would you like some examples ?


Now you sit here and say that because youve heard so much about god from the one who people call god, youve noticed that the person telling the story seems remarkably godlike.

He's telling the story. Of course he fits the role.

Well, the story is told by the evangelists Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus wrote nothing that we have.

The "story" was told by His disciples. Some of the things in His teaching, I have to say, I have experienced. I can say "I know what that is talking about. I have experienced that."

For example, John tells this moment in Christ's ministry:

"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:39)

Before I knew that that passage even existed, I called on the name of Jesus . "Jesus, take me home. Jesus I'm tired. Take me home, Jesus"

I know what happened. On that moment that I called on the name of Jesus for the express purpose of getting in touch with Jesus, I felt just like a flushed toilet.

From deep within my innermost being, it was as if years of crud, filth, sins, shameful things, dirty things, was FLUSHED out of my heart. Heavenly DRAINO was running through my being.

Something so sweet and clean and pure filled my being. A long time after that this passage of John 7:39 came to my notice. Out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water to the one who believes INTO Jesus Christ.

I could say "I know what that is talking about. I have experienced that."

This is one of the many facts which confirms that I am on the right track to trust in Jesus. But if you ask for mathematical certitude of my faith, I have to say, time will tell if Jesus is Lord or not.


jaywill:
I will tell you this, If I do turn out to be wrong about the Son of God Jesus, I will have no regrets whatsoever. Believing in Him and enjoying Him is the best possible life I could have hoped to have lived on the earth.

You:
I find the fact that youd rather live your life worshiping a lie that you knew was false disgusting.

You do not know that Christ is a lie.

And until you can show me what I have to gain by dropping my faith in Christ and picking up your philosophy, you'll just have to be disgusted.

Do you have something superior to Jesus Christ ? I doubt it.
So I am banking everything on Jesus Christ.

But if you have something better then the redemption, transformation, sanctification, and resurrection, glorification, comformation and eternal life and glory in the salvation in Jesus, what is it ?

I can find nothing to compare with Christ. I can find nothing to compete with Christ. So I would have no regrets if He is not Lord.

As it stands, the ones who are misled are those who cannot recognize that He is Lord of all.

But I don't find that disgusting. I find that like me, you need God's mercy to open your eyes to reality.


Debate should attempt to find the truth, and youve just confessed that the truth is not as important to you as is an imaginary fix. Im filled with revulsion.

Propose something better then the Son of God to me. You have something superior to Christ ? What is it ?

And you DON'T know that Christ is not as He said "the way and the truth and the life"

Why are you here in the universe ? I know why I am here. Why are you here ? Besides your revulsion, what would you offer me that could take the place of Jesus the Son of God ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 2:40 PM Damouse has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 4:23 PM jaywill has responded

  
Damouse
Member (Idle past 2984 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 36 of 110 (587974)
10-21-2010 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jaywill
10-21-2010 4:01 PM


Re: Fluff
jaywill: "Here's how I know I am on the right track - "

Thats not the question at all. You keep saying you know youre on the right track in terms of god because the word of god has told you on the right track.

Thats what it means to beg the question. You're answering with the question.

I think the New Testament is way to candid to be false propoganda. There are too many things in it which would be encremenating of the disciples had they been trying to put fiction over as fact.

If there were twelve fishermen who concocted a fictional person and invented words for his mouth and deeds to be his, there is simply too many other things that a smart propogandist should have excluded.

The candidness of the Gospels argue for their authenticity. Would you like some examples ?

For you, maybe. In the quest to convince others of their worth, you cant really base your argument as proof, as its anecdotal.

For example, i believe the gospels are a bunch of stories told around a campfire. I have no illusions about the powers of persuasion of humanity, i have no doubt such a thing can be fabricated.

You again beg the question by proving that the gospels are legitimate by showing convincing gospels.

I could say "I know what that is talking about. I have experienced that."

This isnt a fact, its a psychological manifestation which you attribute to an imaginary friend. Its not proof. Its your own messed up mind finding messed up closure.

In essence, whatever floats your boat. But you cant expect to parade your floated boat as fact. Your opiate is not fact.

You do not know that Christ is a lie.

And until you can show me what I have to gain by dropping my faith in Christ and picking up your philosophy, you'll just have to be disgusted.

Do you have something superior to Jesus Christ ? I doubt it.
So I am banking everything on Jesus Christ.

Thats not the point i made.

The point was that you said that even if god wasnt everything you thought he was, you would still believe.

That is what i was repulsed by. In another thread, the purpose of life was mentioned and ran with by creos. If your purpose of life is to worship, then you are but a slave. If you would worship even if your master was a lie, then you are a stupid slave, with no core or pride.

Propose something better then the Son of God to me. You have something superior to Christ ? What is it ?

Yes. Living for the sake of living. Enriching yourself in the world around you, not considering it just a proving ground, just an ant farm in the grand scheme of things.

That you would continue your slathering worship in the absence of anything to worship, that you would still throw a perfectly good life away idealizing the impossible while ignoring the beauty and life around you, is horrific to me.

Why are you here in the universe ? I know why I am here.

You dont know. You believe.

And i believe humanity has a way with attributing significance where none is needed. The last quote in my signature is my mantra for dealing with this situation.

Things are what they are. People like you strive and sweat to make them more, and would be devastated if they were not so, but why? Is your pride so great that you MUST be special? We are what we are. And what you strive to be is a mindless worshiper.

Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.


This statement is false.

Tell the blunt, honest truth in the starkest, darkest way. And what will be, will be. What will be, should be.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 4:01 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 6:15 PM Damouse has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 37 of 110 (587977)
10-21-2010 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by hooah212002
10-21-2010 3:04 PM


Who embodied Harry Potter the most?

After the comment about the rabbit hole, I thought your heavy was Alice in Wonderland.

This generation is befuddled with over entertainment.

Did you and Tweedle Dum get your little exchange ironed out now that I am out of the way ?

Okay. You want my serious reply now ?


The character in the Harry Potter books, that's who. This says diddly about the source of inspiration or the authenticity of the bible. All you are saying is "well, the bible tells of a character who says he is god and says he acted like the god the book describes, so he must be god because he says so".

The issue is not nearly that simple. You have a Person born in Bethlehem that was predicted to be born some 500 years earlier. Micah the prophet spoke of one whose goings were from eternity, who would come a ruler of Israel.

Now this scripture was so familiar to the experts in the Hebrew Bible that when Herod asked where any possible "born king" of divine origin was to be located, they were able to say "Bethlehem, that is where."

Now Jesus was an extraordinary Person. He could not have orchestrated His own birth that way. That is unless He truly is the pre-existing and ever existing eternal God.

The prophecies concerning Him giving Himself as a atoneing sacrifice for sinners came in centries earlier. How can I say that Isaiah 53 does not expound on the ministry of Jesus ?

How could He have arranged for His own crucifixion the way it happened in fulfillment of the prophecies ? How could He orchestrate these details to make it seem that He was the target of so many Old Testament prophecies.

If you're not familiar with these prophecies it may be easy to have the skeptical ignorance of bliss. Coincidence is not a strong argument.

So we have in the New Testament much more then a situation of "It is authoritative because it says it is authoritative."

You have far too many details outside of the control of the Man which lined up in such a way as to argue for fulfillment of prophecy by God.

You see, that is one of the advantages of having a book which took 1,600 years to complete. It can build up a track record of prophetic fulfillment.


Except, you are already assuming that YOUR particular book is 100% correct.

I came to Jesus first. At first I was too proud to read the Bible. I read Christian philosophy instead. But I had no grounding in the Bible to really understand what these philosophers were trying to say. Then something said to me "Well, you humbled yourself to believe in Jesus. Why not also humble yourself to read the Bible."

So I began to read the paraphrase English version called "Good News For Modern Man". That was a popular New Testament paraphrase in the 60s.

That was the beginning of a life long adventure. I still had a big filter on. I was not going to believe everything so fast. I think it was the integrity of the main Person, Jesus Christ, that led to my believing that His credibility was above questioning.

Decieved people, liars, and crazy people who are under delusions of graduer, simply do not act and teach as Jesus did. So by way of gradual process, I came to accept that the whole Bible must fall or stand together.

Having said that, I would say that sometimes it is a labor to discern what ACTUALLY is being SAID as opposed to what TRADITIOALLY is believed to be being said.

So getting at the accurate translation is important to me. But the integrity of Jesus, the honesty and moral superiority of His personality and the sober mindedness of His thought, concinved me that I was dealing with the SANE truth in this Bible.


I think one of the points of this thread is: how do you know for certain you haven't been tricked and the "god" you worship isn't really god at all, but some trickster?

I am still thinking on that one. I don't believe that I am 100% free from being deceived. I think if I were not still deceived in at least some areas, my life would be different.

I think I would not waste a moment apart from the enjoyment of Jesus if I were not still distracted by the lie. The lies still distract me some otherwisee I would be as absolute as a John or Paul or Peter or many more contemporary Christians who seem to me to have been freed from all bribe.

Christ is too wonderful not to be true. People would not invent a character like Jesus Christ. It is not in mankind to want to concoct someone as absolute for truth as Jesus was.

We are all out for out own skin, eventually. Jesus was totally absolute for the will of His Father. I think His absoluteness argues that He knew what reality was.


Really? You actually enjoy being a POS? You enjoy being a sub-human? A worthless piece of trash? Almost daily you post about how shitty of a person you are just because your invisible friend tells you that you are. I can't believe you would wish to go through that again.....

You seem to me to misunderstand many things I wrote here over the years.

God became man so that man might become God in life and in nature, only not in His Godhead. Would God want to share ETERNITY with one who is trash?

Christ is said to be the Firstborn among many brothers. That is why the Onlybegotten Son of God is eventually also called the Firstborn Son of God. God wants to mass produce sons of God. And that is exceedingly valuable to Him and to man.

The saved were predestinated to be sons of God before the foundation of the world according to Ephesians chapter 1. That means that we are so meaningful that before God laid the foundation of the world, before He created the universe He planned a glorious destiny for His sons.

This means that the universe was created for Christ and the sons of God. This means that man is not trash. This means that man is very meaningful,

Now, your homies like Dawkins and Hitchens, they may teach you that we are nothing but shaved apes. Your biological heavies might tell you that we are likely to be outlived by cock roaches.

You athiest cosmologiest are likely to tell you that we are on a second rate planet in a second rate galaxy which is doomed to disperse into the eternal night as ashes. Those heros may tell you that man means little or nothing.

But not Jesus the Son of God. So get your facts right. If man were no so important God would not have become a man in Jesus.

So go check with you homie Charles Darwin and see if humanity is worth more in his system. You're just an accident to your boy Darwin.

Life is far more valuable in God's economy then in any human philosophy that I have seen.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by hooah212002, posted 10-21-2010 3:04 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 10-21-2010 5:17 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 40 by hooah212002, posted 10-21-2010 6:25 PM jaywill has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 110 (587978)
10-21-2010 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jaywill
10-21-2010 4:42 PM


jaywill writes:

The issue is not nearly that simple. You have a Person born in Bethlehem that was predicted to be born some 500 years earlier. Micah the prophet spoke of one whose goings were from eternity, who would come a ruler of Israel.

Once again, have you ever read the Bible?

Jesus has never been the ruler of Israel. The ruler mentioned only has a historic legacy, nothing about goings were from eternity.

I imagine that you are referring to Micah 5 as some prophecy of Jesus but if you actually read it in context it cannot be talking about Jesus and it does not seem to say what you claim.

Micah 5:

quote:
Micah 5
A Promised Ruler From Bethlehem

1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops,
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel's ruler
on the cheek with a rod.

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times. "

3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.

5 And he will be their peace.

Deliverance and Destruction

When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men.

6 They will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
He will deliver us from the Assyrian
when he invades our land
and marches into our borders.

7 The remnant of Jacob will be
in the midst of many peoples
like dew from the LORD,
like showers on the grass,
which do not wait for man
or linger for mankind.

8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations,
in the midst of many peoples,
like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
which mauls and mangles as it goes,
and no one can rescue.

9 Your hand will be lifted up in triumph over your enemies,
and all your foes will be destroyed.

10 "In that day," declares the LORD,
"I will destroy your horses from among you
and demolish your chariots.

11 I will destroy the cities of your land
and tear down all your strongholds.

12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.

13 I will destroy your carved images
and your sacred stones from among you;
you will no longer bow down
to the work of your hands.

14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles
and demolish your cities.

15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath
upon the nations that have not obeyed me."



Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 4:42 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 39 of 110 (587985)
10-21-2010 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Damouse
10-21-2010 4:23 PM


Re: Fluff
Thats not the question at all. You keep saying you know youre on the right track in terms of god because the word of god has told you on the right track.

I don't think that is all I wrote. The changes in my life since that time I called on the name of Jesus, I know, I could not have done myself. If I had been able to I would have done so.

We have communities all over the globe on the five continents. I don't offer this as proof of truth. But it is very confirming when you can meet together on a Sunday with Korean speaking, Chinese speaking, Spanish speaking, English speaking believers. And the one joy and fellowship runs through the congregation. We are all in the same experience. And over the five continents the oneness of experience is very confirming.

Obviously something is being exprienced which transcends culture and nationality here.

Proof of truth ? Maybe not completely. But the unity is confirming. You are just going to have to decide for yourself.
I would not ask you to put your trust in me. I would say you should put your trust in Jesus.


Thats what it means to beg the question. You're answering with the question.

If I did not say it, I'll say it now. We have a faith. You know to me the most impressive person who ever lived spoke the most about "faith".

I know that modern man thinks of faith as a poor stepchild, a beggarly substitute for scientific knowledge. But I am very impressed with the power of the personality of Jesus Christ. And He spoke very much about faith.

Proof leaves something for man to boast about. Proof leaves man something for his pride. Faith leaves nothing for the proud to point to themselves and boast "Look what I did. Look what I know."

So I am happy to admit that I have a faith. Now I really admire Einstien, Newton, Hawking, Von Neuman, and many other scientists. I really admire thier labors on what they can prove with mathematics. That has its place.

But the sheer impact of Jesus of Nazareth impresses me more. And Jesus spoke much and demonstrated much about "faith in God".

I admit that I have a faith. You needn't feel sorry for me. On one end is our faith. But on the other end is God's FAITHFULNESS. . It is not the Christian's faith in a vacuum. It is the Christian's faith plus the FAITHFULNESS of God that is so convincing.


For example, i believe the gospels are a bunch of stories told around a campfire.

For what purpose? Simply for entertainment value?

Eleven disciples hiding out behind closed doors, scarred to death that they were the next to be nailed to a Roman cross. Suddenly, they are willing to give their lives for something they believe, that is that their Master Jesus has been raised from the dead.

A campfire story did that ?

Come on guy. I went to YMCA camp and they told us young kids that if you ring the lunch bell at midnight, the headless man would come out of the woods.

But this story didn't spread around the world, last for 2000 years, and have its originators go to lions dens, torture stakes, crosses, and persecutions believing the account unto death.

Your notion that the New Testament came into being only for entertainment value requires more of a blind leap of faith then I am able to muster. Do you have a more plausible theory then the camp fire story one ?


I have no illusions about the powers of persuasion of humanity, i have no doubt such a thing can be fabricated.

How about this. How about Someone coming along who is so impressive that a ban of associates decide that this is really a big deal. How about some people saying " You know this is really big. This is so big that I think I'll drop everything and devote the rest of my life to tell the world about this."

Is it too hard to conceive that somebody could have so much impact on witnesses that they wanted the world to know about Him ?

"Moreover indeed many other signs also Jesus did before His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." (John 20:21)

"And there ae also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself could contain the books written." (John 21:25)

How about Someone coming along, whose impact on His pupils is so strong that it was cataclysmic. They simply had to devote the remainder of thier lives to tell the world after them of this Person who said He was Son of God.

Possible? Any room for that possibility in your musings ?


You again beg the question by proving that the gospels are legitimate by showing convincing gospels.

I could say "I know what that is talking about. I have experienced that."

This isnt a fact, its a psychological manifestation which you attribute to an imaginary friend. Its not proof. Its your own messed up mind finding messed up closure.

Imaginary friend. Okay. How can I now deal with this ? You're pretty tough. Let's try this on the "imaginary friend" theory.

I use to love to be a morally unclean person. No "FRIEND" of mine could interfere in this favorite passtime. In fact I also loved to steal musical equipment when I played in bands. No "FRIEND" of mine could convince me that I should not steal something that I thought I needed more than the other guy.

There were many other things of which I am not ashamed to confess. But if you wanted to be MY friend, you better leave me alone about those things. It was no one's business.

Now, one day, a LORD intefered with my program of fornication, stealing, lying, and many other wrong doings. This Lord showed me that God was more enjoyable then the enjoyment of my slavery to my iniquities.

This was not "FRIENDSHIP" was much more of a LORDSHIP of someone able to subdue me, a most stubburn and self willed sinner. His gentleness conquered me. He looked beyong my faults and saw my needs. He alone could do an inside job on my personality like no friend ever could.

The Lord was not always perceived as a friend. the Lord sometimes appeared to me as a nuisance. The Lord appeared to me as one interfering in my program. Then this LORD convinced me that there is an enjoyment which surpasses the wrong things from which I derived enjoyment.

Your concept of a sentimental invisible friend rings hallow to me. I would have to say with Jesus the definition of "friend" has to be greatly updated. Or I would have to say that the "LORD Jesus" is not your typical sentimental concept of a friend, pandering, permissive, flattering.

I have never had a loved one or worldly "friend" of the caliber of Christ.

And if this is just imaginary friendship, the autobiographies of such a phenomonon are plentiful. George Muller has answers to thousands of practical prayers in his faith establishment of orphanages. I don't think these many solid answers to his prayers were do to self hypnotism or an imaginary friend.

I knew a kid who was in an car accident that threw him into a sever coma. When he awoke from the coma he knew Jesus Christ. Something happened to him on a deep level beyond typical consiousness.

When I regularly practice offering a portion of my financial wealth to some ministry to spread the Gospel, I do not have financial problems. When I horde and have a hard heart towards giving of my substance, I usually have problems of all kinds.

But when I exercise faith to give a portion to God's work, it is as reliable as the law of gravity, my needs are taken care of. I have seen a professional accountant stake his reputation on that fact that giving unto the ministry of God, like clockwork, opens the door to receiving a steady supply of your needs met.

I don't think an fictitious "invisible friend" is doing this. Rather I think this is man's faith on one side and God's FAITHFULNESS on the other testifying that His word is real.


In essence, whatever floats your boat. But you cant expect to parade your floated boat as fact. Your opiate is not fact.

If you have some formulas to demonstrate this beyond all shadow of doubt, let's have them from you. Then the discussion is over. Isn't it ?

IF you want to be consistent with your philosophical approach, it is not whatever floats my boat. If it is a lie then you should say that it should be discarded even if it does "float my boat."

So if you know Jesus is not Lord, don't tell me "Whatever floats your boat." Give me your mathematical formulas proving beyond all shadow of doubt that Jesus is not Son of God.

Get your formulas published and educate the human race of the non-reality of God. What are you waiting for ?

jaywill:

Do you have something superior to Jesus Christ ? I doubt it.
So I am banking everything on Jesus Christ.

You:
Thats not the point i made.

It rarely is the point the unbeliever makes. You tell me all about what you DON'T believe. Fine. Do you have something you think is more real ?

Has it stood the test of time as the Gospel of Christ has ?
Has it stood the test of persecution as the Gospel of Christ has?
Has it been sliced and diced and carved up and chopped up and scrutinized, examined, debunked from by a thousand capable minds, and it still is a vital attraction through all these attacks.

The bible has been sliced and diced and chopped by some of the keenest minds. It is still a best seller in more languages then any other book in existence.

Two thousand years and we'er still proclaiming that Jesus Christ is alive and available. Whose the next heroic destroyer of the Christian faith after the Olympian efforts of Voltaire, David Hume, Fredrich Nietchize, Betrand Russell and Anthony Flew and Christopher Hitchens ?

Whose up to bat next ? Jesus is Lord. You're the deluded one.


The point was that you said that even if god wasnt everything you thought he was, you would still believe.

That is what i was repulsed by. In another thread, the purpose of life was mentioned and ran with by creos. If your purpose of life is to worship, then you are but a slave. If you would worship even if your master was a lie, then you are a stupid slave, with no core or pride.

You don't know what worship is to me. I worship while I sleep.
My worship is the live in the realm and sphere of the avialiable Christ. You have no idea whatsoever what it means for me to worship the Triune God.

I drink Him. I breath Him. I swim in Him. We have a kingdom to build. A MAN is on the throne of this universe.

You may want to miss all the fun. I don't.

Yes I am a fool for Jesus Christ. Whose fool are you ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 4:23 PM Damouse has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 7:55 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 40 of 110 (587986)
10-21-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jaywill
10-21-2010 4:42 PM


The issue is not nearly that simple. You have a Person born in Bethlehem that was predicted to be born some 500 years earlier. Micah the prophet spoke of one whose goings were from eternity, who would come a ruler of Israel.

Now this scripture was so familiar to the experts in the Hebrew Bible that when Herod asked where any possible "born king" of divine origin was to be located, they were able to say "Bethlehem, that is where."
Now Jesus was an extraordinary Person. He could not have orchestrated His own birth that way. That is unless He truly is the pre-existing and ever existing eternal God.

The prophecies concerning Him giving Himself as a atoneing sacrifice for sinners came in centries earlier. How can I say that Isaiah 53 does not expound on the ministry of Jesus ?

How could He have arranged for His own crucifixion the way it happened in fulfillment of the prophecies ? How could He orchestrate these details to make it seem that He was the target of so many Old Testament prophecies.

If you're not familiar with these prophecies it may be easy to have the skeptical ignorance of bliss. Coincidence is not a strong argument.

So we have in the New Testament much more then a situation of "It is authoritative because it says it is authoritative."
You have far too many details outside of the control of the Man which lined up in such a way as to argue for fulfillment of prophecy by God.

You see, that is one of the advantages of having a book which took 1,600 years to complete. It can build up a track record of prophetic fulfillment.

There's this group of people. They are a rather large group. They worship the same god you do: the god of abraham. Except for one thing: they don't buy the whole jesus is god spiel. Perhaps you know what group of people I am talking about? Now that you do, how do you propose to tell me how you are so certain you haven't been tricked by some trickster to worship some false god (jeebus, in this case)?

(don't mind if I skip to the end of your sermon)

You seem to me to misunderstand many things I wrote here over the years.

Oh no, you've been quite clear in your hatred for yourself and your fellow man. You've made it crystal clear that you wake up every day and grovel for forgiveness at the feet of your invisible friend because you are a piece of shit because you think that's what he told you.

mindless trash talk about Dawkins, Hitchens and Darwin

You wanna know something funny? You will really laugh at this one. They don't dictate anyones moral compass. That's hilarious, innit?


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 4:42 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 7:31 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 41 of 110 (587989)
10-21-2010 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by hooah212002
10-21-2010 6:25 PM


There's this group of people. They are a rather large group. They worship the same god you do: the god of abraham. Except for one thing: they don't buy the whole jesus is god spiel. Perhaps you know what group of people I am talking about? Now that you do, how do you propose to tell me how you are so certain you haven't been tricked by some trickster to worship some false god (jeebus, in this case)?

Yes. You have a point. However, this group of people also wanted to stone Moses and appoint someone else to lead them back the Egypt, "the iron furnace" of their slavery.

If for a season they turned on Moses to stone him to death, it is not implausible that they might turn on their Messiah too.

(don't mind if I skip to the end of your sermon)

I don't mind. I can always preach another one.


jaywill:

You seem to me to misunderstand many things I wrote here over the years.

you:

Oh no, you've been quite clear in your hatred for yourself and your fellow man.

Hold on here. I just got accused of being conceited. Now I have a hatred for myself. You guys want to make up your minds?

And for me hating my fellow man ? Well, the Lord knows I will continue my prayers for some of you.

I guess that's because of my "hatred" for my fellow man, huh ?


You've made it crystal clear that you wake up every day and grovel for forgiveness at the feet of your invisible friend because you are a piece of shit because you think that's what he told you.

And you can provide me a QUOTATION that that led you to that conclusion. Here's your chance to shine.

QUOTE ME. Where did I say of give the impression that I GROVEL each morning before God.

God is not interested in your groveling. He is interested in your believing. You needn't grovel for forgiveness. You only need to believe and thank God that Christ has died and rose. That's all.

See, now you need a little sermon. Look at this passage:

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

Please pay attention to this. The emphasis on the word RIGHTEOUS is mine. The verse says that if we believers in Jesus confess our sins God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins.

It is the RIGHTEOUS thing for Him to do. He has to forgive because righteousness is the foundation of God's throne. And because Christ has accomplished redemption, it is RIGHETOUS for God to look upon the one believing in Christ as totally forgiven.

Now God is merciful for sure. But interestingly, this verse does not say God is faithful and merciful to forgive us. Neither does it say if we confess God has great PITY on us to forgive us.

As a matter of fact it doesn't even say God has to like us. Whether He likes me or doesn't like me, to be true His own RIGHTEOUSNESS, He must forgive me.

I can say "God. I am not here to grovel. I am here to tell you that because Your Son has died a redemptive death on Calvary, You HAVE to forgive me. Whether you like me or not, it is the RIGHTEOUS thing for you to do."

So, my wise guy, God is not interested in your groveling. He is interested in your realizing the JUSTICE has been imputed on your behalf in the death of Christ. He just wants you to BELIEVE.

Groveling is not needed. Neither does your tears cleanse away you sins. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses away your sins. Our part is simply to believe, to receive and give thanks.


mindless trash talk about Dawkins, Hitchens and Darwin

I may open up a thread to express how I would answer some of the charges of Chris Hitchens. I've heard plenty of his debates.

I might like to speak out how I would address some of the charges of Christopher Hitchens.

Anyway, remember one thing from this post. God is not interested in your BEGGING or GROVELING. He simply awaits your believing. Believe and give thanks for what Christ has done.

And see what grace and power are released into your soul as a result of your simply believing.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by hooah212002, posted 10-21-2010 6:25 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Damouse
Member (Idle past 2984 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 42 of 110 (587991)
10-21-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jaywill
10-21-2010 6:15 PM


Re: Fluff
For what purpose? Simply for entertainment value?

Power. Respect. Money. All the things men crave. The smart ones knew people like you would flock to them.

The "campfire" is a bit of a joke. It took thousands of years to put together and canonize, but the result is the same.

Possible? Any room for that possibility in your musings ?

No. No room for that. Because even if i believed the whole story of the big JC, there would be massive logical discrepancies with the world around me.

If you have some formulas to demonstrate this beyond all shadow of doubt, let's have them from you. Then the discussion is over. Isn't it ?

Now jaywill, you've been a remarkably composed and stoic debator so far, don't ruin it by misrepresenting what ive been saying.

You are right, my philosophical mantra demands that i cast this down as a lie and deal with the world as it is.

However, my political and social mantras demand a sense of politeness and tolerance. This doctrine will never be for me; it is a waste of life and potential. But no part of any of my mantras demands that i make others believe as me.

And so i dont have to prove anything to you about my beliefs. They are what they are. Even if i had produced proof, im not sure you would accept it, as you have already said you would still worship if JC were a lie.

Furthermore, my lack of belief in god doesnt put the burden of proof on me, my friend. Quite the opposite, as these things go.

Do you have something you think is more real ?

Yes, and i told you what it is. Its called realism. Reality is calling.

Whose the next heroic destroyer of the Christian faith after the Olympian efforts of Voltaire, David Hume, Fredrich Nietchize, Betrand Russell and Anthony Flew and Christopher Hitchens ?

The time of theism is long gone. People got smarter. We have been becoming more and more secular as history has slogged on, and very soon i imagine its going to be left behind all together. You can label your religion with whatever undying imagery you'd like, but people are moving away from their crutches. The masses are being weaned off their opium.

I drink Him. I breath Him. I swim in Him. We have a kingdom to build. A MAN is on the throne of this universe.

You may want to miss all the fun. I don't.

Yes I am a fool for Jesus Christ. Whose fool are you ?

Why does an omnipotent god need slave help to build a kingdom...?

Fun? Yeah, id love to spend my mortal years prostrate with worship and my eternal years in utter bliss, with nothing to occupy my attention or provoke any intelligent thought. Also, id be in eternal slavehood/worship, it seems.

How the hell does that sound fun?

Fool or not, i will be damn sure im no fool to people seeking my money or seeking to control me. If you have to use the crutch that is religion to live your life, so be it. But i will be my own man in the only world we get, and no one will command my worship.


This statement is false.

Tell the blunt, honest truth in the starkest, darkest way. And what will be, will be. What will be, should be.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 6:15 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 43 of 110 (588036)
10-22-2010 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jaywill
10-21-2010 1:22 PM


Attempts by Moslems to portray Mohammed as a prediction from the Bible are more then feeble and obvious fabrications.

Agreed, but then I also agree that the same is true of Christians attempts to portray Jesus as the predicted in the Old Testament a feeble and obvious fabrication.

No I would only have to argue that Allah of the Quran is not the same God who inspired the Bible.

It doesn't matter who you think actually authored it, or who it is about. You noted that it was somehow interesting or unusual that a book that claims to be written by the God of Abraham might have more details than are in the Old Testament. I just wondered why it was interesting or unusual that a purported all knowing eye witness who directly participated in events might have access to information that has either been lost or corrupted or was not previously recorded or divulged.

God would not tell us that Christ as raised from the dead in the New Testament only to latter tell us that He really was not.

Indeed, so the conclusion is that the claims that Christ raised from the dead were ' feeble and obvious fabrications' or its the claim that he was the Messiah but that's 'all' that is a ' feeble and obvious fabrication' or both.

Taking a stab at the topic - how do you resolve this?

Do you believe God would say both things ?

No - I think he said neither. But if we assume he said one of them, how do you determine which one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2010 1:22 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 44 of 110 (588091)
10-22-2010 7:26 AM


Stick to the Topic and Maintain Respect
Participants,

Please refrain from getting overly personal and please keep language respectful. Remember to argue the position, not the person.

A reminder of the topic question:

The question is this: how do the faithful know that their holy text is truly divine in origin, and not just the best trick ever devised by some evil god, demigod or other superbeing;
how do you tell who really inspired that scripture?

Discussion preferably limited to methods and/or facts which are involved in determining the being(s) responsible for the above, and criticisms of said methods and facts.


Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate
  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 45 of 110 (588111)
10-22-2010 10:14 AM


The OP states:

The question is this: how do the faithful know that their holy text is truly divine in origin, and not just the best trick ever devised by some evil god, demigod or other superbeing;
how do you tell who really inspired that scripture?

For those of you who are suspicious that the Bible's "inspiration" could be from Satan, I have a few questions.

1.) Why would Satan want me to believe in Satan's final defeat and eternal punishment ?

"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone, where also the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 14:10)

How would it be advantageous to the devil that his defeat be predicted ?

2.) What advantage to the devil would it be to speak of the eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels?

"Then He [Christ] will say to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)

How does it serve the devil's purposes that I know that an eternal punishment has been prepared for the devil and his angels ?

3.) How does it serve Satan's purposes that I be taught that the Son of God came to destroy the works of the Devil ?

" For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

4.) How does it serve Satan's purposes for me to be taught that Christ came to destroy the one " who has the might of death, the devil" ?

" He [Christ] also Himself in like manner partook of the same [blood and flesh] that through death He might destroy him that has the might of death, that is, the devil." (Hebrews 2:14)

What advantage to the Deceiver would this be to trick us to believe that the Son of God is the destroyer of his might of death ?

5.) Of what advantage to the Devil would it be for me to see that he is cast down from making accusations against God's people ?

"Now has come salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night." ( Rev. 12:10)

What benefit could Satan derive from having me expect his accusations against God's people to be silenced ?

6.) Of what advantage is it for Satan to deceive me that we Christians overcome Satan by the blood of Christ ?

"And they overcame him [the devil] by the blood of the Lamb ..." (Rev. 12:11)

7.) Of what advantage would it be to Satan to deceptively inform the Christian church that he [satan] will only have a short time left to work during the great tribulation ?

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea becaise the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev.:12)

8.) Of what advantage to Satan would it be to clue us that to love Christ above our own soul lives would be the way to overcome Satan?

"And they overcame Him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:11)

9.) Of what advantage would it be to Satan to deceptively have Jesus teach that the Devil,"the ruler of the world" HAD NOTHING IN HIM [Jesus] ?

"I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and in Me he has nothing." (John 14:30)

10.) Of what advantage would it be to Satan to have Paul write that no power or principality present or to come would ever be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ ?

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38,39)

I expect that someone will respond with some very fancy conspiracy theories.

However, these are all exceedingly self defeating teachings for the Devil to have purposely used to enfluence the Christians.

These ten points above and multitudes more like them do not persuade me that Jesus Christ and His victory are the invention of the Devil to somehow support a God opposing agenda.

PS. None of these points argues that the Devil has not TWISTED the interpretation of the Bible to serve his own evil deceptive purposes. That action has been both predicted and occured massively.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 10:42 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 10-22-2010 11:20 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
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