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Author Topic:   Who is really in charge of inspiration?
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 46 of 110 (588120)
10-22-2010 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jaywill
10-22-2010 10:14 AM


jaywill writes:
2.) What advantage to the devil would it be to speak of the eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels?
"Then He [Christ] will say to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)
How does it serve the devil's purposes that I know that an eternal punishment has been prepared for the devil and his angels ?
That is a classic and near perfect example. Thanks for mentioning that very one.
In the Matt 25 Sheep and Goats story, the Goats are Christ's followers, the Sheep those who did not follow Christ.
Satan was bright enough to understand that in particular, Biblical Christians would evolve who did not know how to read critically and so would see themselves as the Sheep even though the passage clearly says otherwise.
quote:
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Note that the Sheep are surprised that they are selected as saved even though they know they never did anything for Jesus, not even praise him. They were not his followers.
The Goats are equally amazed because they knew that they would have done anything for Jesus, never failed to aid him when he needed it. They were his followers.
So in that very passage Satan is saying that the followers of Christ just don't get it.
Or maybe it really is GOD telling you that you just don't get it?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 10:14 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 12:04 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 499 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 110 (588127)
10-22-2010 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jaywill
10-22-2010 10:14 AM


jaywill writes:
For those of you who are suspicious that the Bible's "inspiration" could be from Satan, I have a few questions.
You're really just asking one question over and over again.
It's common practice to lie to one's enemies. Satan wrote the Bible to fool people into thinking he was losing the battle. He created the false cult of Christianity to fool people into doing his evil work, such as campaigning against homosexuals.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 10:14 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 48 of 110 (588131)
10-22-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
10-22-2010 10:42 AM


That is a classic and near perfect example. Thanks for mentioning that very one.
In the Matt 25 Sheep and Goats story, the Goats are Christ's followers, the Sheep those who did not follow Christ.
The goats are not Christ's followers. This is spoken to the goats :
" Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the the devil and his angels. " (v.41)
That is ALL we need to be told to know that they are not redeemed by Jesus Christ, are not forgiven, and are not saved, therefore are not His followers or His people. They are no more His people then "the devil and his angels" whom they will join in the eternal fire:
"And these [goats] will go away into eternal punishment ..." (v.46)
They on the left, as the goats are in constrast to "the righteous" therefore they are in no means justified by Christ -
"And these [goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)
This above is not a statement on who "the righteous" are. At this point it is only important to note that those in contrast to "the righteous" are condemned, and that not temporarily but eternally. So they emphatically are not followers of Christ.
Satan was bright enough to understand that in particular, Biblical Christians would evolve who did not know how to read critically and so would see themselves as the Sheep even though the passage clearly says otherwise.
You are talking now with me, jaywill. And I say the "sheep" neither represent Christians.
These "sheep" on the right hand of Christ share with the "goats" on the left hand that they did not know who Christ was. The people who are Christ's would have to be in the third group mentioned which is "the least of these my brothers".
Therefore there are not TWO groups in the teaching but THREE:
1.) The sheep on the right of Christ.
2.) The goats on the left of Christ.
3.) These - the least of these Christ's brothers.
The sheep (group #1) are judged for their treatment of the brothers of Christ down to the least of them (group #3)
Likewise, the goats (group #2) are also judged according to their treatment of Christ's brothers, down to the least of them (group #3).
Groups #1 and #2 are rewarded according to thier treatment of group #3.
Both, the sheep and the goats are made up of "the Gentiles". The word there, "the nations" is the same word for translating "the Gentiles". So this teaching is about Christ judging "the Gentiles".
We must note that the nations, the Gentiles are said to be the sheep of God's hand in the Old Testament -
"Make a joyful noise to Jehovah, ALL THE EARTH. Serve Jehovah with rejoicingl Come before His presence with joyful singing.
Know that it is Jwehovah who is God; It is He who has made us and not we ourselves. We are His people and the SHEEP of His pasture." (Psalm 100:1-3)
All the earth, all the Gentiles, are the sheep of God. It is only that those who in the end times sell themelves to be Antichrist's, renounce God the Creator and are goats persecuting God's people who are not permitted to buy or sell anything in the great tribulation. These brothers of Christ of the Jews and Christians will be imprisoned, destitute, homeless, without food, without medicine, sick, driven into hiding, scattered and hunted by a government that is hostile to all Theism, will be shuned by the goats.
But the sheep who are kind to these persecuted brothers of Christ will be saved to be the nations in the millennial kingdom over whom the elect of God will reign.
This teaching of the reward of the unkowing sheep could possibly a fulfillment of Christ's words about some receiving a prophet's reward because of kindness to a prophet:
"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
And whoever gives to one of these little ones only a cup of water to drink in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Matthew 10:41)
The believers in Jesus who overcome to live victorious lives are promised to reign with Christ. It does not make sense that they would reign over one another. There must be some people on the earth over which these sons of God may reign. The sheep who are kind to the persecuted brothers of Jesus, in the end times, will be those people.
Neither the sheep nor the goats seem to know who Christ is. It is possible that by that time it will be hard to find a New Testament. Perhaps in the realm of the Antichrist, Bibles are banned.
Those sympathetic to the Antichrist, will persecute these troublesome persecuted brothers of Christ left on the earth during that time. Other people will be sheep, who though they know not Christ, are listening to their God given conscience and the proclamation of fearing God the Creator, which "eternal gospel" is announced not by the Christian church, but by an angel/s in the air (Rev. 14:6,7)
Please notice that this "eternal gospel" announced during the great tribulation is one of fearing God the Creator. It is not the gospel of Christ's redemption preached throughout the church age by the Lord's disciples.
The Antichrist will proclaim himself as God. The nations that follow the Antichrist will become the goats. The nations that do not, though they do not know Christ, they respect God the Creator and fear to persecute the godly people who are being hounded, hunted, and imprisoned by Antichrist and his government.
When Jesus decends in the Holy Land, He will judge the nations that are left alive at His coming. There will be three groups:
1.) The Sheep who were considerate of His persecuted brothers and feared God the Creator.
2.) The Goats who regarded Antichrist as their Leader and were against all other theists, especially the Christians and Jews.
3.) These the least of them, all the Lord's brothers. People belonging to Christ from elect Jews to be made to recongnize the Messiah and the Christians.
Jar's idea that the goats are Christians is totally fallacious.
Jar is correct if he assumes that neither the goats or the sheep are aware of who Jesus Christ is.
And jar would be correct to point out that the sheep are justified to God on other grounds then typically outlined in the Gospel as preached by the apostles.
It does not say that the sheep were saved because they confessed Jesus as Lord, whom they did not know. However, given supplying information about the end times, it would appear that they responded to "the eternal gospel" to fear God the Creator. Instead of following Antichrist they feared God the Creator who by that time will be turning the creation upside down in supernatural calamities.
They are kind to the persecuted people of Christ - His brothers down to the least.
The Sheep cannot themselves be the brothers of the Lord Jesus. This is because being sick and imprisoned and persecuted as the brothers will be they would have no opportunity to do themselves good.
Jar has terribly twisted this passage. I will wait for his further response before adding additional evidence that he is twisting the meaning of the passage.
Note that the Sheep are surprised that they are selected as saved even though they know they never did anything for Jesus, not even praise him. They were not his followers.
That both the sheep and the goats are surprised, I have no argument against. Jar is correct that the sheep are surprised.
It should be noted that mankind originally created was created to enjoy the kingdom of God's good earth. For this reason these sheep will be restored to the condition of Adam before his fall.
At that time neutral Adam who was created "very good" was given to enjoy the kingdom prepared for man "from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34)
The sons of God who are organically made brothers of Jesus Christ enjoy something more. That is the inheritance perpared for them BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4)
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5)
The sons of God have an inheritance prepared for them BEFORE the foundation of the world.
The sheep have a kingdom prepared for their enjoyment FROM the foundation of the world.
Herein is another difference. The son of God in the millennium must have some nations to reign over. The sheep will be transfered from this age into that coming age of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
This judgement in Matthew 25 is NOT the last judgment of mankind which occures 1,000 years afterwards at the Great White Throne in Revelation 20. This judgment of Matthew 25 is only of the living Gentiles, the still living nations, who are on the earth at the time Christ sets up the throne of His glory in Jerusalem after the great tribulation.
The Goats are equally amazed because they knew that they would have done anything for Jesus, never failed to aid him when he needed it. They were his followers.
So in that very passage Satan is saying that the followers of Christ just don't get it.
This is convoluted and terribly in error.
If jar wanted to point out that Judgement begins at the House of God and that His people receive rewards and punishment, there are other passages much better to demonstrate that.
In his eagerness to justify unbelievers and condemn believers in Christ jar has terribly twisted Matthew 25:31-46.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 10:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 12:54 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 49 of 110 (588133)
10-22-2010 12:27 PM


I will have to double check some other teachers on some aspects of what I wrote above.
Mainly, the goats. It could be that I am mistaken on this point:
The GOATS, I am not sure are followers of Antichrist or simply people not under the government of Antichrist, who do nothing at the persecution OF Antichrist at the brothers of Christ.
I need to study this matter further. At any rate the goats are not Christians. They are either the subjects of the Antichrist at the end times OR though not in his government are not symphathetic to the refugee people of Christ who are persecuted and driven into exile BY Antichrist and his government.
The notion that Antichrist will reign over all the earth, is, I think an error. He will have a realm and refugees will be trying to escape that realm.
The sympathy or lack OF sympathy will be a deciding factor of how Christ will deal with nations upon the establishing of His throne in Israel.

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 50 of 110 (588137)
10-22-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jaywill
10-22-2010 12:04 PM


Except that is NOT what it says. It says all the earth is gathered, not all the earth except the least of these my brothers. It describes but two groups, those on the right and those on the left.
The least of these my brothers are all who are hungry, need shelter, are naked, sorrowful or ignorant.
They could be in either group.
I posted all of the Sheep and Goat parable so that the audience can read it in context.
The readers can decide which of us is the false teacher.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 12:04 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 3:51 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 51 of 110 (588165)
10-22-2010 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
10-22-2010 12:54 PM


Before I comment further on how to interpret Matthew 25:31-46 first I would say, many people use this passage to talk about humanitarian acts done towards people in need.
I have no objection to this passage being applied in that way. If some are inspired by this passage to perform acts of kindness towards needy peoples, that is very good. But I regard that as an application of the teaching. When it comes to the interpretation of the teaching, I regard this as a prophecy about the events of Christ's second coming.
"But WHEN the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, AT THAT TIME He will sit on the throne of His glory." (v.31 my emphasis).
This is a prophetic passage of something that will occur. If it is a parable it is a parable in a prophecy of something historical to occur.
But I do not intend to take the wind out of anyone's sails who is inspired by Matthew 25:31-46 to be merciful, whether they are or not followers of Christ.
Jar objects to my interpretation of the prophecy:
Except that is NOT what it says. It says all the earth is gathered, not all the earth except the least of these my brothers. It describes but two groups, those on the right and those on the left.
It also says that the angels are with Him. This proves that it does not have to explicitly mention where all those who are present at this event are. It mentions those on the left and on the right. There could be others there.
For example, since this is in the holy land, those who are saved by Him of neither those on the left or right could also be present.
Indeed, it could be an event like the prophecy of Daniel 7:9-10
"I watched Until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow and the hair of His head was like pure wool;
His throne was flames of fire, its wheels, burning fire. A stream of fire issued forth And came out from before Him.
Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him." (See Daniel 7:9,10)
My only point is that this eschatological scene has thousands ministering to the Divine One on His throne and ten thousands of ten thousands standing before Him.
So it could be with Matthew 25:31-46. The focus is mainly on those before Christ on the left and on the right. There may be others at the event of whom it is not told exactly where they stand, for example we see the angels are with Him (v.31). But no special attention is given to discribe where they are "with Him".
The least of these my brothers are all who are hungry, need shelter, are naked, sorrowful or ignorant.
They could be in either group.
No, they could not. For it makes no sense that the brothers down to the least would be those being banished away into the eternal fire that the goats are sent to.
Why would Christ be concerned for the care of them by good deeds when they are only about to suffer eternally ? Those about to be banished by Christ are ones He DISOWNS rather than owns.
The least of these my brothers are OWNED by Jesus and not DISOWNED.
Neither does it make much sense that the least of these His brothers are of the "sheep." If they are destitute and in prison they would have no opportunity to take care of themselves let alone anyone else.
In the Scripture the world is divided into three classes of people: the Jews, the church, and the nations. In Matthew 24 and 25 the eschatological dealing with the Jews and the church have already been touched by Christ. The remaining section, 25:31-46 deals with what will happen to the nations.
I posted all of the Sheep and Goat parable so that the audience can read it in context.
The readers can decide which of us is the false teacher.
Some erroneously regard Matthew 25:31-46 as a Universal Judgment. This is erroneous because any universal judgment should include the Jews, the church, and both the LIVING and the DEAD of the nations. This teaching only speaks of the living nations as being judged. The dead from ages past are not mentioned at all.
The thought of one grand universal judgment is an misunderstanding of the Bible. The Bible does not teach of a grand universal judgment.
The Bible speaks of judgment dispensed by God severally. For example there is definitely a judgment before the millennial kingdom and one after it a thousands years latter. Compare Revelation 11:18 with 20:12-15.
Notice the words "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." (20:5). And this was spoken immediately after this:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment wa given to them ..." (20:4)
Obviously you have a judgment before the millennial kingdom to determine the status of some during that time. And you have a judgment AFTER the thousand years are completed starting with Revelation 20:11.
You have a judgment at the commencement of the millennial kingdom when Christ sits on the throne of His glory in the Holy Land immediately after His second coming (Matt. 25:31-46). This is a judgment of the living nations. And then you have after the thousand years are completed, of the dead - "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their deeds." (20:12)
Christ is the judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim. 41; Rom 2:16). However He is not the judge of the living and the dead at the same time or in one universal judgment.
WHO is to be judged in Matthew 25:31-46? It is "all the nations" (v.32) This word is the same as that translated in the 1901 ASV as [b]"Gentiles" in [b]4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18 and 20:19,25.
This judgment of "all the nations" is the same as refered to in the parable of the net cast into the sea in Matthew 13:47-50 which I will not expound at this time. But the two sections refer to the same event.
There are three parables in Matthew 13 which regard Christ's dealing respectively with the Jewish nation (13:44), the Christian church (13:45,46), and the Gentile nations alive at His second coming (13:47-50).
The last parable about the good and the bad fishes being separated corresponds to Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and goats being separated.
The Gentile nations who are not Jews or Christians and who are alive when Christ returns physically to earth, will be good or bad fishes, or sheep or goats.
WHEN is this judgment of Matthew 25:31-46? It is before the millennial kingdom (v.34). This is not the same judgment of the great white throne to occur after the millennial kingdom in Revelation 20.
WHERE is this judgment to occur ? The throne is on earth upon which the Son of Man sits. It is Christ's throne on earth during the millennial kingdom. If it is in heaven or in the air that would mean that all the nations would have to be raptured to appear before His judgment throne.
This is His glorious earthly throne set up in the Holy Land.
In Revelation 20, the earth and heaven flee away from before the face of the one seated on His judgment throne. No place is found for earth or heaven and it seems that millions or billions are suspended in space before Christ and God - (Rev. 20:11)
"And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them." (v.11)
Furthermore this judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 preceeds the throwing of Satan into the eternal fire. That is because Satan is throne into that punishment after the thousand years are completed. But Matthew 25:41 says the eternal fire has been "prepared" for the Devil and his angels. Since this punishement has been "prepared" for the Devil it proves that he has not yet been cast into that place.
Where else in the Bible can it be demonstrated that something is "prepared" for someone, yet they are already there ?
Furthermore, the appellation "the Son of Man" is a name used in connection with the millennial kingdom. After the millennium, the Son "will deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father" (1 Cor. 15:24)
The prophecy must be interpreted with other prophecies. And it fits what we are told about several judgments.
I'll stop here for now.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 12:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 4:07 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 52 of 110 (588167)
10-22-2010 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jaywill
10-22-2010 3:51 PM


As usual, just more tap dancing and misdirection.
I will post the passage yet again:
quote:
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
There is no mention of where it will be located, and in fact all the nations a gathered before him. There is no mention of any excluded or other group of humans.
It is only after they are all gathered before him that the separation and culling is done.
quote:
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
The Sheep are surprised because they knew they had never done anything for Jesus.
quote:
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
The Goats are surprised because they knew they had never failed to do for Jesus.
And so far I have never seen any indication of a fulfilled Biblical Prophecy.
If it is considered as a prophecy then it is still a failed prophecy.
If though it is considered as an inspired charge, part of the teaching unrelated to any future even but simpley a statement of what we are to do, it is valid.
It is NOT what to believe, it is NOT what you profess, it is what you do that counts.
There is inspiration in the Bible, words to inspire folk to do. Trying to make the SOURCE the main point diminishes and trivializes the message and the Bible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 3:51 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 5:05 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 53 of 110 (588173)
10-22-2010 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
10-22-2010 4:07 PM


Some readers may notice that I erased a comment about jar's teaching which I decided I would keep to myself. He has a right to an interpretation of the passage. Though I do not feel he has adaquately addressed the weaknesses of it I have provided.
There is no mention of where it will be located, and in fact all the nations a gathered before him. There is no mention of any excluded or other group of humans.
The name of this game is to divide and separate the relevant passages about Christ's return to pretend they have nothing to do with each other.
We know from other passages that Jesus Christ will sit in judgment in Israel in the Holy Land:
JOEL 3:12 - "Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat. For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
Send forth the sickle, For the harvest is ripe; Come tread, for the winepress is full; the wine vats overflow, for the evil is great ..."
For THERE - in the valley of Jehoshaphat, will God sit in judgment.
Jesus is God incarnate.
A comparison with the book of Revelation and the Battle of Armageddon indicates that God will judge nations in Israel in the huge valley of Jehoshaphat. I have spoken to someone who is visited that place. They declared that it is a very large expanse of land.
There, we believe Jesus will gather untold numbers to be judged - sheep and goats.
Joel continues - "Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision; For the day of Jehovah has drawn near in the valley of decision. "
A little further on Joel continues with this: "And Jehovah will roar from Zion, And from Jerisalem he will utter His voice, and the heavens and the earth will shake..
But Jehovah will be a shelter to His people and a stronghold to the people of Israel.
Thus you will know that I am Jehovah your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain." (Joel 3:16-17a)
This is very practical and locatable. Christ, Who is God incarnate, will set the throne of His glory and judgment in Israel.
When He roars from Zion all who are alive on earth at that time should want to be on the right side of those tremendous utterances.
It is only after they are all gathered before him that the separation and culling is done.
This is not terribly relevant I think.
quote:
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37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
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The Sheep are surprised because they knew they had never done anything for Jesus.
We agreed on this already. It doesn't establish jar's interpretation as a whole. It is only one part that is correct.
When you come to jar's point about the goats being Christians, you can smell the deception. It makes no sense.
I suppose this is just his way of saying that he knows Christians who he considers not as generous as himself. That may be true but it doesn't justify his faulty exegesis.
quote:
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44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Goats are surprised because they knew they had never failed to do for Jesus.
This too has already been agreed to by me. Neither the sheep nor the goats knew much about Christ.
Thier judgment here is not based on them knowing Christ. It is based on their treatment of those of His brothers. His brothers know who He is most likely.
If this is jar's attempt to teach the brotherhood of all men - ie. all men are Jesus' brothers, this is not a good place to argue that. In Matthew Christ goes to the cross to shed His blood for the forgiveness of sinners.
If some sinners are ignorant as to that covenant, as would be expected under the God hating reign of Antichrist, it is not surprising that they are forgiven or condemned based on something else besides the new covenant to which they were kept ignorant.
Once again, we are told that in those last days, when God is shaking the creation and Antichrist is threatening all to worship him or starve to death, some of the world will realize that the true CREATOR God must be the one respnsible for the supernatural calamities:
"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on theearth, over every nation and tribe and tongue and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters." (Rev. 14:6,7)
I will not take the time now to show that this supernatural announcement is right in the middle of the time of great tribulation as indicated by the enire 14th chapter of Revelation. It suffices to say that this announcement is designed to neutralize the deceptive activity of the Antichrist and his false prophet duringt that time.
It should also be pointed out that Romans 1 says that men are without excuse to not believe in God the Creator of the creation. Here, at least, in one portion of the Bible, we can see that some not knowing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, may be saved because of the fearing of the judgment of God the Creator of the universe.
Apparently, along with this fear also comes a conscience informed desire to help the refugees persecuted by Antichrist, who cannot live because his evil government intends to starve out all those who do not acknowledge Antichrist as the only god.
These portions have to be considered together. Matthew and Revelation and Joel have to be placed together to get a fuller picture.
And so far I have never seen any indication of a fulfilled Biblical Prophecy.
That's jar's blindness and unbelief.
That is his fertile imagination to ALWAYS come up with some plausible doubt about prophecies which a great many Bible scholars agree have been fulfilled.
He is just baosting that he can find some loophole to always protest that such and such was not fulfilled.
I am not impressed with this kind of exercise from the skeptic's rejection factory imagination. Career skeptics like jar will always come up with some reason to cast doubt on fulfilled prophecy.
This is also a subtle attempt to shift the discussion to be about "No such thing as fulfilled prophecy".
If it is considered as a prophecy then it is still a failed prophecy.
If though it is considered as an inspired charge, part of the teaching unrelated to any future even but simpley a statement of what we are to do, it is valid.
It is NOT what to believe, it is NOT what you profess, it is what you do that counts.
This is a self defeating argument. If there is no fulfilled prophecy then jar's expectation that the so called Christian "goats" and "sheep" (whoever he imagines them to be) will never come before Christ and never be judged.
So in rejecting all fulfillment of prophecy jar rejects his own interpretation as to what Jesus is saying will happen, becasue that is OBVIOUSLY what Jesus is teaching about - "WHEN the Son of Man comes ..."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 4:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 5:32 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 54 of 110 (588180)
10-22-2010 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jaywill
10-22-2010 5:05 PM


One of the practices of many Christian Apologists that is relevant to this thread is that they love to pull what are often called "proof texts" out of context and then use them as evidence of support for some other totally unrelated part of the Bible.
For example.
There is no reason to think that Joel is ever speaking about Jesus, if Joel is read in context it is pretty obvious that it is speaking to the people of his day (likely around 800BCE) and telling them to shape up.
It is a practice though, and one that I believe helps drive folk away from Christianity, for Biblical Christian Apologists to try to tie every passage they can into foreshadowing Jesus.
Come one now.
People can actually read the Bible and see that the Apologists are just tap dancing, toss spaghetti on the ceiling to see what sticks.
This is not some new tactic, it can be seen in the edits and additions made to what eventually passed through some Committee of Canon and has been incorporated.
The audience can read both (the Sheep and Goats I already included and Joel is just a few Chapters long) and see what is really said.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 5:05 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 6:37 PM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 55 of 110 (588181)
10-22-2010 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by 1.61803
10-19-2010 11:01 AM


Re: Papal infallibilty
First off, would you consider an entity holy emposing inquisition, brutally torturing and burning people alive at the stake for rejecting the dominant powers of the popes and bishops of that entity, thus, emerging the planet into the Dark Ages?
Secondly, this Holy Catholic Church did not cannonize the holy scriptures.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by 1.61803, posted 10-19-2010 11:01 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 56 of 110 (588183)
10-22-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
10-22-2010 5:32 PM


There is no reason to think that Joel is ever speaking about Jesus, if Joel is read in context it is pretty obvious that it is speaking to the people of his day (likely around 800BCE) and telling them to shape up.
The book of Revelation establishes the link between Joel's prophecies and the end times. There are obvious references to the book of Joel.
The great winepress of the fury of God is the war at Armageddon (Rev. 16:12-16), which is in the valley of Jehosshaphat (Joel 3:9-16).
we can therfore be confident Joel in his prophecy was refering to some things related to Christ coming in the end times.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 5:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 10-22-2010 7:05 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 57 of 110 (588184)
10-22-2010 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nij
10-18-2010 1:17 AM


Evidence Of Supernatural Inspiration Required
Nij writes:
The question is this: how do the faithful know that their holy text is truly divine in origin, and not just the best trick ever devised by some evil god, demigod or other superbeing;
how do you tell who really inspired that scripture?
Good thread and pertinent question, Nij. Over the decades, in addressing questions as to why I believe the Bible to be true, I cite things like fulfilled prophecy. No other religious holy writings have this element. I cite historical evidence. Religions like Mormon Church whose holy book is the Book Of Mormon have no fulfilled prophecy and no historical evidence of most of the alleged people in those scriptures.
I cite archeological and cultural evidence, etc as well.
Bottom line: Evidence of supernatural inspiration.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nij, posted 10-18-2010 1:17 AM Nij has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2010 2:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 58 of 110 (588186)
10-22-2010 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jaywill
10-22-2010 6:37 PM


Example of Inspiration
Nonsense jaywill. Come on.
quote:
The book of Revelation establishes the link between Joel's prophecies and the end times. There are obvious references to the book of Joel.
The great winepress of the fury of God is the war at Armageddon (Rev. 16:12-16), which is in the valley of Jehosshaphat (Joel 3:9-16).
we can therfore be confident Joel in his prophecy was refering to some things related to Christ coming in the end times.
Think. All that says is the the author of Revelation did exactly what I pointed out. The author of Revelation had access to Joel and could use it in his writing meant for the audience about 1500+ years ago, but it tells us nothing about what the author of Joel who wrote almost a thousand years before the author of Revelations meant. The author of Revelation used passages from Joel as inspiration for his apocalyptic literature about Rome.
Revelation though is yet another great example of at best unfulfilled prophecy and more likely failed prophecy.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 6:37 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4977 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 59 of 110 (588201)
10-22-2010 8:40 PM


As others have pointed out, jaywill, you've done nothing but beg the question.
"How do you know it is really God and not Satan?"
"Because God says so in the book he wrote."
"But how do you know it was really God?"
"Because he says he is God."
"Yes, obviously he does. But how do you know that he is really God?"
"Because he says he is and I believe him."
Does this not seem a little silly to you?
As for asking why Satan would "predict" his own failure: isn't one of his nicknames "the great deceiver"? There are these things called lies. It involves making shit up from your imagination, as opposed to a factual basis, to make somebody think something contrary to fact.
Buz: apologies if this appears rude, but go away. I'm not interested in your "fulfilled prophecy" shit derailing this thread.
You may be interested to know that two-thirds of your holy book is the Torah and a substantial part of the Quran is a hodge-podge of both. That's at least three religions all sharing whatever prophecies are contained in their books. If one has them fulfilled, all of them do. Your particular cult doesn't have more of a monopoly than any other fundy literalist.

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 9:19 PM Nij has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 60 of 110 (588203)
10-22-2010 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Nij
10-22-2010 8:40 PM


Buz: apologies if this appears rude, but go away. I'm not interested in your "fulfilled prophecy
That is appears rude and actually is foul, filthy mouthed and rude, is a secondary problem as far as I can see. That it appears that you really don't care to know anything but your opinion is the more serious problem.
This may be a thread you started but if you want contributors to "go away" because you don't want to consider their evidence, then you don't want to talk to me either.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Nij, posted 10-22-2010 8:40 PM Nij has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Nij, posted 10-22-2010 10:32 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2010 4:26 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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