Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,575 Year: 4,832/9,624 Month: 180/427 Week: 93/85 Day: 0/10 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Who is really in charge of inspiration?
Nij
Member (Idle past 4967 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 61 of 110 (588215)
10-22-2010 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jaywill
10-22-2010 9:19 PM


Hey dickwit, if you paid attention, I specifically asked in the original post that this be about methods and facts that demonstrate the inspiration for any and all holy texts to be who they say they are.
Not a place for him to trot out the same stuff he's apparently been trying for literally years wherever he had the chance.
Even in the case that his viewpoint was relevant, I cleanly disembowelled his position that his book alone contained fulfilled prophecy and that his cult alone could use this as verification of their inspitration's divinity.
If he wants to expound his views after being so easily dismissed, there are ways for him to do so, e.g. by starting a thread (AFAIK some already do exist). If you don't like my lack of subtlety in stating the above facts and wanting a straight answer to the straight question I asked, then you may as well get lost yourself.
I notice you rather entirely ignored the point which was directed specifically at you in that message.
On topic. Please. Once again:
How do you tell who really inspired that scripture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 9:19 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 11:17 PM Nij has not replied
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2010 4:15 PM Nij has replied
 Message 83 by AdminModulous, posted 10-25-2010 5:52 PM Nij has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2019 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 62 of 110 (588221)
10-22-2010 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Nij
10-22-2010 10:32 PM


Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Nij, posted 10-22-2010 10:32 PM Nij has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 63 of 110 (588298)
10-23-2010 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Nij
10-22-2010 10:32 PM


Nij writes:
........if you paid attention, I specifically asked in the original post that this be about methods and facts that demonstrate the inspiration for any and all holy texts to be who they say they are.
Not a place for him to trot out the same stuff he's apparently been trying for literally years wherever he had the chance.
Even in the case that his viewpoint was relevant, I cleanly disembowelled his position that his book alone contained fulfilled prophecy and that his cult alone could use this as verification of their inspitration's divinity.
If he wants to expound his views after being so easily dismissed, there are ways for him to do so, e.g. by starting a thread (AFAIK some already do exist). If you don't like my lack of subtlety in stating the above facts and wanting a straight answer to the straight question I asked, then you may as well get lost yourself.
I notice you rather entirely ignored the point which was directed specifically at you in that message.
Nij, be reminded the specific question you emboldingly highlighted in this thread OP:
Nij writes:
The question is this: how do the faithful know that their holy text is truly divine in origin, and not just the best trick ever devised by some evil god, demigod or other superbeing;
how do you tell who really inspired that scripture?
I directly and succinctly answered your question as to why I espouse the Biblical record to be holy text, divine in origin and not just the best trick ever devised by some evil god, etc.
Whether or not you choose to reject my reason, nevertheless it is dead on and relevant to topic airing my answer to your question directly. I will not be bullied out of this thread because of your secularistic ideological mindset. If you can't stand the heat, don't start the fire. This is a debate board, not a host/hostess elegantly arranged tea party of like minded guests.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Nij, posted 10-22-2010 10:32 PM Nij has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Nij, posted 10-23-2010 7:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 64 of 110 (588299)
10-23-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jaywill
10-22-2010 9:19 PM


Re: Thread Topic
jaywill writes:
This may be a thread you started but if you want contributors to "go away" because you don't want to consider their evidence, then you don't want to talk to me either.
Thanks Jaywill. Hang in here for the Biblical record. This thread ain't over until the fat lady sings, as the saying goes relative to the fat lady, Kate Smith, who sang (abe: God Bless America)at the end of major sports events back in the 1940,50s.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted in context

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jaywill, posted 10-22-2010 9:19 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 10-23-2010 4:37 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 65 of 110 (588300)
10-23-2010 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
10-23-2010 4:26 PM


Re: Thread Topic
Buz writes:
This thread ain't over until the fat lady sings, as the saying goes relative to the fat lady, Kate Smith, who sang at the end of sports events back in the 1940,50s.
Actually, no. It referred humorously to many of the rather large women that were opera sopranos, particularly Wagnerian operas.
And another example of how things get reworked.
So far no one has offered any support that there is any inspiration other than man, later authors borrow and take passages from earlier authors and use them out of context as "proof texts". A god example was jaywill claiming that Joel was speaking of Jesus in the context of Matthew 25 by pointing to what the author of Revelation took out of context from Joel to point to what the Revelation author thought would happen over 1500 years ago.
Human inspiration all the way down to the Turtles.
Hopefully though you will have some evidence that supports your position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2010 4:26 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4967 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 66 of 110 (588321)
10-23-2010 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Buzsaw
10-23-2010 4:15 PM


Very well then Buz, I'll indulge your incessant desire to push prophecy at people and claim it as fulfilled.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that these prophecies are fulfilled and valid.
That still does not provide any evidence whatsoever to determine the person or entity that inspired those prophecies to be the god you worship.
How do you know it is your god that really wrote those prophecies, and not Satan or the Devil or Loki or Basement Cat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2010 4:15 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 67 of 110 (588334)
10-24-2010 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
10-22-2010 6:38 PM


Re: Evidence Of Supernatural Inspiration Required
Bottom line: Evidence of supernatural inspiration.
But the mere claim that it was supernaturally inspired does not answer the suggestion that it was "the best trick ever devised by some evil god, demigod or other superbeing". Even if we allow your claim that it was supernatural, why can't it be a trick by a supernatural being not particularly well disposed to us?
The witches in Macbeth make prophecies (and clear unambiguous ones, at that) but even after unmistakable fulfillment of their prophecies Macbeth never thinks that they're God talking to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 10-22-2010 6:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2019 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 68 of 110 (588338)
10-24-2010 9:03 AM


The ancient challenge:
" Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden ?" (Genesis 3:1)
The modern day version of the same challenge:
"But how you KNOW that that Bible was not a trick of the Devil? Did God really inpsire the Bible ?"
There's nothing much new under the sun. Get them to doubt God's word. Get them to question God's heart.

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 10-24-2010 9:31 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2010 2:58 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 80 by Nij, posted 10-24-2010 7:06 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 10-24-2010 7:14 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 69 of 110 (588340)
10-24-2010 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by jaywill
10-24-2010 9:03 AM


Except of course, in Genesis 3 it is the Serpent that tells the truth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jaywill, posted 10-24-2010 9:03 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 10-24-2010 11:19 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 70 of 110 (588357)
10-24-2010 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
10-24-2010 9:31 AM


Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
NIV writes:
John 8:44--You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
According to dogma, the serpent was incapable of truth, IF he was in fact Satan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 10-24-2010 9:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 10-24-2010 11:25 AM Phat has replied
 Message 72 by hooah212002, posted 10-24-2010 11:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 71 of 110 (588358)
10-24-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
10-24-2010 11:19 AM


Re: Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
LOL
But what does the story say?
quote:
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
and...
quote:
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 10-24-2010 11:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 10-29-2010 3:26 AM jar has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 879 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 72 of 110 (588360)
10-24-2010 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
10-24-2010 11:19 AM


Re: Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
Funny. If you replace "the devil" in that passage with "YHWH", it sounds exactly the same.
He was a murderer from the beginning
Who murdered more people in the bible: YHWH or "the devil"? And as jar pointed out, who told the truth in the garden?

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 10-24-2010 11:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 10-24-2010 12:04 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 73 of 110 (588361)
10-24-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by hooah212002
10-24-2010 11:56 AM


Re: Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
You're making the same type mistake.
The point is that what we find in the Bible is a mixture of very different stories and with entirely different purposes. Some are meant as laws, others as a tale of the founding of a people, some as poetry, others describing snap shots of how a particular people living in a particular culture at a particular time saw their relationship with God, with their society, with those societies around them and the rest of life.
We need to look at it through the eyes and mythos of the people living at that particular time, that particular culture.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by hooah212002, posted 10-24-2010 11:56 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by hooah212002, posted 10-24-2010 12:16 PM jar has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 879 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 74 of 110 (588363)
10-24-2010 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
10-24-2010 12:04 PM


Re: Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
Ok. But as far as the particular passage in question is concerned, it could very well be construed as "the devil" saying YHWH is a liar and murderer, just juxtaposing the terms so as to lead christians to a false god. Why do we need to worry about the people who were around at the time it references?
I also find it funny how we (well, you all) are trying test the divinity of the bible.....by using bible passages.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 10-24-2010 12:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 10-24-2010 12:22 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 75 of 110 (588364)
10-24-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by hooah212002
10-24-2010 12:16 PM


Re: Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
I also find it funny how we (well, you all) are trying test the divinity of the bible.....by using bible passages.
Which might be relevant if I was trying to test the divinity of the Bible.
But stop and think. If we were discussing any other story one of the very major issues would be the content of that story.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by hooah212002, posted 10-24-2010 12:16 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 10-24-2010 12:34 PM jar has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024