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Author Topic:   Who is really in charge of inspiration?
Nij
Member (Idle past 4973 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 91 of 110 (588620)
10-26-2010 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
10-26-2010 7:55 PM


Re: Gimme a break
If there are those who acknowledge that having faith means that they can't be sure -- such as yourself, obviously -- and wish to leave it at that, then fine by me.
It's those who claim, either explicitly by statement or implicitly by arguing in support of the position, that they can and do know for sure, whom I wish to hear from. So far, it appears none have given anything to support their position vis. it is definitely -- if I may borrow the Dr's analogy -- Alice the nice girl and not Bob the psycho that did the graffiti.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 7:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 11:01 PM Nij has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 92 of 110 (588621)
10-26-2010 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Nij
10-26-2010 10:58 PM


Re: Gimme a break
But we are still talking belief.
What difference does it make if they "know" they are right?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Nij, posted 10-26-2010 10:58 PM Nij has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Nij, posted 10-26-2010 11:22 PM jar has replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4973 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 93 of 110 (588627)
10-26-2010 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
10-26-2010 11:01 PM


Re: Gimme a break
Isn't the whole point of a discussion forum to discuss things?
They make the claim, I'd like to see evidence for it. Exactly as you and many others would say if somebody claimed they had evidence 'disproving' evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 11:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 11:31 PM Nij has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 94 of 110 (588629)
10-26-2010 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Nij
10-26-2010 11:22 PM


Re: Gimme a break
Except by definition belief is not subject to testing and in particular, supernatural by definition is not testable. If for example they claim personal revelation you have no real recourse. You can of course simply say that you do not believe them, which is fine.
If God chooses to speak to them but not to you, where is the problem?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Nij, posted 10-26-2010 11:22 PM Nij has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Nij, posted 10-26-2010 11:45 PM jar has replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4973 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 95 of 110 (588633)
10-26-2010 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by jar
10-26-2010 11:31 PM


Re: Gimme a break
Except I am not questioning the mere fact that they have been "spoken" to, but also the identity of the speaker.
How do they know it is who they think it is?
Were they programmed with some special secret code that would only recognise God? Is there some kind of devil-detector that only certain people are able to use? What exactly is the difference between the sound of God's voice and Satan's voice, or between Thor and Loki's voices, or between Zeus and Hades' voices?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 11:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 11:49 PM Nij has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 96 of 110 (588635)
10-26-2010 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Nij
10-26-2010 11:45 PM


Re: Gimme a break
They are satisfied that it is God. What more do you need?
Understand, it is a question that I often ask people myself and have never gotten any answer that I consider reasonable.
But we are talking about their beliefs. If they are satisfied then why do we care?
Edited by jar, : hit ket

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Nij, posted 10-26-2010 11:45 PM Nij has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by bluescat48, posted 10-27-2010 12:38 AM jar has not replied
 Message 98 by Nij, posted 10-27-2010 3:24 AM jar has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4273 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 97 of 110 (588642)
10-27-2010 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
10-26-2010 11:49 PM


Re: Gimme a break
But we are talking about their beliefs. If they are satisfied then why do we care?
I, for all practical purposes, don't save when someone tries to use what is written as evidence that it was inspired by (Name your inspirer).

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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 Message 96 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 11:49 PM jar has not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4973 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 98 of 110 (588652)
10-27-2010 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
10-26-2010 11:49 PM


Re: Gimme a break
Understand, it is a question that I often ask people myself and have never gotten any answer that I consider reasonable.
Then perhaps you should ask the people who think they have got reasonable answers to pop in for a while.
But we are talking about their beliefs. If they are satisfied then why do we care?
Because some of them happen to think we should accept their belief as fact on the basis of their evidence and reasoning. So if they want me to accept it, they need to provide that reasoning and evidence, or else do what you have already: admit they don't know and leave it at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 11:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 10-27-2010 9:15 AM Nij has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 99 of 110 (588665)
10-27-2010 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Nij
10-27-2010 3:24 AM


Re: Gimme a break
Because some of them happen to think we should accept their belief as fact on the basis of their evidence and reasoning. So if they want me to accept it, they need to provide that reasoning and evidence, or else do what you have already: admit they don't know and leave it at that.
If they want to convert you to their belief, then yes, to get you to change your mind they need to present evidence that is sufficient to convince you.
But if they are simply informing you of their belief then no evidence is needed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Nij, posted 10-27-2010 3:24 AM Nij has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 110 (588675)
10-27-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Nij
10-26-2010 7:29 PM


just making fun
Thank you for the enlightened condescension, CS.
You're welcome, it was reflective.
You posit one supernatural entity with having done one thing, yet you have entirely no evidence of this action. You then claim that no, it could not have been another entity at all, again with no corroborating evidence.
Where's the claims that it could not have been another entity at all?
And if there was entirely no evidence, then that would mean that what was posited was arrived at randomly. Do you really think that people form their religious beliefs all willy-nilly?
I'm asking you how you know it was that sky-fairy and not another.
And I've answered that and you haven't replied...
I don't know, I can't. So what?
Personally, I think the notion of sky-fairies is laughable in the extreme, but consider me curious as to why the mind would accept something despite not having a rational basis for it.
I accept plenty of things without a rational basis, it doesn't bother me.
Seeing as you've admitted you can't and don't know, why are you so sure in your faith then?
How sure do you think I am? I wouldn't say sure...
Surety and faith don't really go hand-in-hand. Faith is trust for when there isn't surety.
If I was sure then I wouldn't need faith. I don't "have faith" in evolution, I've seen from the evidence that its happening. We can't know if the Bible was inspired, by I believe it and have faith that it was. But that doesn't mean I don't have any evidence whatsoever. We can look at the contents of the book and try to figure out if its something that we could accept as being inspired. But all you seem interested in is: "well, how do you know that was inspiried?". When people reply, all you gotta do is go back one more: "well, how do you know that was inspiried?", and so on. In the end, yes, we don't have evidence telling us whether or not it was. But that doesn't mean that positions are not being derived and thought about and worked towards.
I seem to recall that children should be weaned away from the use of security blankets relatively early in life. But then again, acting like sheep seems to be a motif of Catholicism.
Nah, its more like out-sourcing your thinking
But yeah, you're like, totally right, man: Theist don't have any rational thinking at all and thier beliefs are just childish security blankets.
You're lucky that your so much better than them.
This cartoon character of the believer that you've concocted is grossly inaccurate and the way you've draw it is telling of your pompous conceitedness.
You have them as arriving at their conclusions willy-nilly and then demanding that other people believe them as well, but lucky you with your rationality that you are demanding of evidence and if only you could expose them to their lack of evidence then the smart ones will see that they don't have your rationality and then they'll drop their stupid beliefs thereby having nothing to demand others to accept.
But we can see that this isn't what the believers are doing, that they're not really sure and that they're not really demanding you believe anything. But you don't want to talk to those people. It seems this is just another atheist's thread set up to make fun of those stupid believers.

The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false. - St. Thomas Aquinas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Nij, posted 10-26-2010 7:29 PM Nij has not replied

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 Message 101 by ringo, posted 10-27-2010 12:34 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 101 of 110 (588682)
10-27-2010 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
10-27-2010 11:42 AM


Re: just making fun
Catholic Scientist writes:
Do you really think that people form their religious beliefs all willy-nilly?
I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment, yes.
The core beliefs might be handed down from family or culture but most people tend to agglomerate a lot of diverse detail from books, videos, etc. Look at some of Buzsaw's outlandish ideas, for example.
In my experience, the more "literally" people take the Bible, the less they know about it and the more likely they are to accept willy-nilly ideas from outside sources about what it says.
Who is really in charge of inspiration? Ron Wyatt and YouTube.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

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 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-27-2010 11:42 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 102 of 110 (588915)
10-29-2010 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
10-24-2010 11:25 AM


Re: Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
Who is us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 10-24-2010 11:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 10-29-2010 9:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 105 by jar, posted 10-29-2010 3:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 103 of 110 (588946)
10-29-2010 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
10-29-2010 3:26 AM


Re: Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
Gods.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 10-29-2010 3:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 389 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 104 of 110 (588976)
10-29-2010 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
10-29-2010 3:26 AM


Re: Serpant must NOT be the Devil then
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
Who is us?
The better question is, what is good and what is evil?
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 10-29-2010 3:26 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 105 of 110 (589001)
10-29-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
10-29-2010 3:26 AM


god and gods
I'm putting this in a separate post because I think it's important and may even somehow relate to the topic itself.
At the time the Genesis Garden of Eden fable was taking form, the idea of gods was quite different. The idea that there was one god, of any of the various forms of monotheism that developed around the middle bronze age, would not just have been alien, it simply would not have even come up.
There would have been lots of gods, very human like yet living separately in a place few humans got to visit, capricious beings, more powerful than humans but not unlimited, quick to anger and quick to forgive or slow to anger but never forgiving, pretty much like the petty tyrants of the day.
When the author of the story talks about "us" he is talking about the gods.
It is only much, much later, around the time the Exodus myth was taking form that the concept of a god of a given people was beginning to evolve. But even there, it is NOT just one God, but rather a god of an area, or of a particular people.
Reading the Bible as though ever reference to God describes the same character can only lead to misunderstanding and a cheapening of the stories.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 10-29-2010 3:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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