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Author Topic:   Who is really in charge of inspiration?
Member (Idle past 2028 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005

Message 106 of 110 (589368)
11-01-2010 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
10-29-2010 3:59 PM

Re: god and gods
When the author of the story talks about "us" he is talking about the gods.
The book of Job is supposed to be the oldest writing in the Bible. There is only one God in Job. The angels are called sons of God and council around in God's presence. But there is only ONE Almighty God in this oldest book of the Bible, Job.
Now, let's briefly come to Genesis. Though God uses the plural pronoun when the act of creating man is discussed, the singular pronoun is used in the actual act.
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..." (Gen. 1:26a)
Here we read the plural indicators "Us" and "Our". Yet in the next verse it is the singular "God" who actually does the creating of man in "His" image.
"An God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him,; male and female He created them." (v.27)
The Scripture did not say "And the [GODS plural] created man in [THEIR plural] image."
We see something rather mysterious about God in Genesis chapter 1. This same scheme is repeated a few other times. For example in the building of the tower of Babel:
"Come, let Us go down and there confound their language ... so Jehovah scattered them ..."
Here the plural pronoun "Us" accompanied with a singular "Jehovah" or YHWH performs the actual action of confounding.
Then again in Isaiah's calling as a prophet:
[b]"Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send? Who will go for Us ?" (Isa. 6:8)
The singular pronoun "I" is spoken by the Lord. Yet He say "Who will go for Us [plural]".
Something mysterious about the nature of God is seen in these utterances. Now we come back to Genesis 1. God is multi-une. He is triune. His operation of dispensing His life into man requires that He be triune. But objection is likely to be raised by some who do not see the unity of the revelation of the Scripture. So, I'll hold off elaborating this for awhile.
Now, who else could God be talking about when He says "Let Us make man in Our image"?
I have contemplated this a great deal. The only other possible candidates would be the angels or cherubim (some kind of angelic creature mentioned in Genesis). This would lead to an understanding that God was saying to His other created beings:
Paraphrased - "You angels and I, God the Creator, share the same image and likeness. Now let US, you angels, cherubims, and Myself, create man in OUR image and according to OUR likeness."
The problem here is firstly that no angels or other creatures of God's creation are ever said to co-creators. They are never spoken of as agents of creation or active in that process.
God created the creation and asks the rhetorical question "Who was with Me?"
"I am Jehovah who makes all things, Who alone stretches out the heavens, Who spread out the earth (Who was with Me?)... " (Isa. 44:24)
In another place God assures us the He does not know of any other Gods in existence:
"And you are My witnesses, Is there a God besides Me? Or is there any [other] Rock? I do not know of [any]. " (Isa. 44:8)
In the older writing then Genesis, the book of Job, the angelic "sons of God" are seen rejoicing in God's act of creation. But there is no hint that they accompanied God in the action. They only celebrate what the Creator has done:
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? ... When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy ?" (See Job 38:4-7)
Notice it is "when I [singular] laid the foundations of the earth ...". It is not "when [we plural] laid the foundations ..."
The Creator is God alone. But what about "Our image" ? Is there some indication that God shares His image with the angels ?
I don't want to answer this question too fast. But I could start the consideration by asking anyone to put forth a verse saying definitely that the angels share with God the image and likeness of YHWH.
Is such a concept put forth anywhere in the Bible, especially the Hebrew Bible ? To answer this I don't think it requires that we know exactly what the image and / or likeness of God means. All we need is a definite passage stating that the angels share with God His image and likeness. I can't think of any such passage.
I'll stop this post here for now.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 10-29-2010 3:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 10:17 PM jaywill has replied

Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8

Message 107 of 110 (589371)
11-01-2010 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jaywill
11-01-2010 10:13 PM

Re: god and gods
If you want to discuss this maybe it would be better over in the Birth of Monotheism

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jaywill, posted 11-01-2010 10:13 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by jaywill, posted 11-01-2010 11:07 PM jar has not replied

Member (Idle past 2028 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005

Message 108 of 110 (589373)
11-01-2010 10:34 PM

While I wait to see if anyone proposes a passage saying clearly that the angels are in the image and likeness of God, there is another consideration about Genesis 1:26,27.
In all the previous days of creating the Scripture never had god saying "Let Us" . All the previous acts simply had God saying "Let there be" this or that or something else. It is only in the creation of man that this mysterious utterance is introduced "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."
This should indicate something unique about not only God but the man whom God is about to create. This time a kind of council is convened for God says "Let Us" .
We do not read "Let there be man" as with the other physical things or other living beings. I submit that the multi-une nature of God has something to do with His special creation of man. Only at the arrival of this creature in the image of God, according to the likeness of God, is they mysterious plural / singular nature of God indicated.
The "Us" does not have plural [b]"image[s]"[/b] The Us has an Image. Man is created in the SINGULAR image po ssessed by the Divine plural "Us".
The Divine "Our" is the possessor of ONE image rather than images [plural]. The man created is in created in "HIS" image and not in THEIR IMAGES [plural].
We can come back to this point perhaps if it can be tied into the topic.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Member (Idle past 2028 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005

Message 109 of 110 (589377)
11-01-2010 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
11-01-2010 10:17 PM

Re: god and gods
If you want to discuss this maybe it would be better over in the Birth of Monotheism
Personally, I am happy to let others talk about "The Birth of Monotheism" over there.
With me it is more about what the Bible means. And it is not for me about the birth of man's monotheism but the eternal reality of there being one God according to the Bible's revelation.
I know some will say that that is not fair. They will insist that I know Islam thoroughly and all about Ra of ancient Egypt.
These are more anthropological considerations. While they are very interesting, I'm prefering to discuss the Bible's meaning in its disclosure about God, in "Bible Study".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 10:17 PM jar has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3082 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006

Message 110 of 110 (604322)
02-11-2011 9:10 AM

What is Inspiration? John Sung certainly fount it!
When the annals of God’s love for the Chinese people are opened in the ages to come, John Sung will be given a throne near to our Lord. Son of a pastor, Sung Shang Chieh was born on Sept 27, 1901 in China. He excelled in schooling so much that he was given an academic scholarship to come to Ohio Wesleyan University in 1920, graduating at the top of his class of 300 in 1923. From there he went to Ohio State University, graduating at the top of his class, then received his M.Sc. in 1924 and his PhD in Chemistry in March of 1926.
Now sitting on top of the academic world at 24-1/2 years of age, job offers carried his ego to dizzying heights. Waking up the morning after the glamorous night of his self-exaltations, there came a still small voice, however, from his innermost being, "For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" (Matt 16:26). A pastor friend at Ohio State remarked to John that he did not look like a scientist, but like a pastor. In the ensuing conversation Dr Sung revealed his original purpose of coming to America and the conflict ever more raging in his soul! "Why not study at Union Theological Seminary in New York then?"
If you would like to read his full story, go to:
In after years Dr Sung made a humorous word-play of this situation, "I was enrolled in a seminary that taught a 'God-is-dead' theology, under the caretaking of a principal surnamed Coffin. But this seminary became a cemetery to my troubled soul." Slowly and steadily Dr Sung's faith in God was whittled away. Coming close to being an atheist, the brilliant scholar in science but befuddled student in theology turned to sages and sutras of the Orient for relief, Buddhism and Taoism, and finally to the Koran. He concluded neither science nor religion could satisfy the quest of his soul.
After John Sung came to the end of himself and was gloriously filled with God's Spirit, the Union Theological Cemetery arranged for him to be placed in the Bloomingdale Hospital psychopathic ward. What John Sung projected to be a one-week vacation in some country hotel became a six-and-a-half month ordeal, 193 days to be exact! Here is a brief summary of what happened to John during his "cemetary" training. Oh that we all might have such "cemetary" training by the hand of God's Spirit. I have read few stories that are more inspiring and amazing!
"Looking back on this episode of my life I consider it rather a drama of paradoxes. From the day of my admission to the Hospital to the evening of my discharge, according to God's timetable, there was a total of 193 days. What I'm going to say hereafter is a recounting of the lessons I've learned in the Mental Hospital.
The first lesson I've learned is how to become an obedient servant. God has thoroughly molded my character and temperament. The day of my complete capitulation and surrender to Him was the day of my graduation from God's Seminary!
"The second lesson was my understanding of Holy Scripture. So, I have declared the Mental Hospital my Seminary from which I have graduated. The Holy Spirit was my Teacher, teaching me the deep things of Truth. The day of my leaving the Hospital was the day I received my diploma.
"The Bible was my textbook. Other teaching materials consisted of visions, pictures, circumstances, inter-personal relationships.
"The Bible comprises 1189 chapters. By the Lord's instruction I've derived 40 methods of study, reading the Bible 40 times. Of course I did not read the Bible crudely word by word. When I read the Bible I was so carried away by it that I kept on and on, like enjoying a delicious meal.
"The Bible is the inspired Word of God, written by the moving of the Spirit of God. Therefore the Bible reader, unless it is revealed to him by God at the instruction of the Holy Spirit, how can he understand it? I thank God that He has shown me the mysteries of the Bible. I know that every chapter, every verse, every word has something good for my spiritual life. At first God taught me through pictures and diagrams, giving me the key verse to each chapter of the Bible. Then He showed me certain key words like `love', `faith', `righteousness' which led me to link them up through the whole Bible. He showed me certain words which had a deeply religious meaning and I would trace such word through the whole Bible. I recorded the findings of every method of Bible study. In a few days I had filled a stack of notebooks. I have told some of my dreams and visions but there are those I have never divulged from the recesses of my heart.
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

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