Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8913 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-16-2019 7:09 PM
27 online now:
4petdinos, AZPaul3, Coragyps, DrJones*, edge, Tanypteryx (6 members, 21 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Arnold Wolf
Post Volume:
Total: 853,868 Year: 8,904/19,786 Month: 1,326/2,119 Week: 86/576 Day: 86/50 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2Next
Author Topic:   Evolution: Natural selection vs. Godly guidance
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 1 of 154 (588583)
10-26-2010 5:10 PM


Do Scientists, especially who I refer to as "evangelical atheistic naturalists" such as Dawkins, Dennett et.al. apply a different "standard of proof" for naturalist scientific theories than for Design theories?

For example when secular naturalist scientists refer to natural selection in evolution it is accepted as fact that there is such an entity. However can anyone prove the existence of natural selection?

Does it have a physical existence that can be proven, or is it the name that scientists hope is the modus operandi of evolution?

It is argued that a supernatural being can never be proven, therefore intelligent design can never be proven. I can say the same for "natural selection", it can never be proven, only accepted on a belief, ie faith, therefore it is not a valid theory.

What if, as I believe, evolution is the continuous creation by a supernatural being, who created and continues to creathe and evolve the natural world?

How can sceintists accept a belief in natural selection as superior to my belief in the supernatural's continuous creation as the cause of evolution. Where is the proof?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add the blank lines between paragraphs.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Increased final paragraph text size. It seems to be the essential question of the message.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Changed topic title from "Natural selection" to "Evolution: Natural selection vs. Godly guidance".


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-26-2010 9:31 PM shadow71 has responded
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 10-27-2010 11:27 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 10-28-2010 12:21 AM shadow71 has responded
 Message 8 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 12:33 AM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-28-2010 1:38 AM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 13 by frako, posted 10-28-2010 4:59 AM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 14 by jar, posted 10-28-2010 9:30 AM shadow71 has responded
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2010 10:59 AM shadow71 has responded
 Message 19 by Modulous, posted 10-28-2010 11:45 AM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 29 by hooah212002, posted 10-28-2010 2:45 PM shadow71 has responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 3 of 154 (588681)
10-27-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
10-26-2010 9:31 PM


Re: Looking for some pre-promotion clarifications
My theory is that evolution has and will occur in life. That this process is designed by God, for me the Roman Catholic God. That what scientists call natural selection can never be proven, just as scientists declare design can never be proven. That scientists adopted the term natural selection because science dictates that all causes must be natural. There is a process but it need and cannot be labeled natural selection because there is no way to prove that these changes occcur naturally. Can a scientist prove that this change in a species was natural or supernatural? therefore scientists by adopting natural selection as the cause over supernatural design is arbitrary and not provable.
Hope this helps.
Shadow 71
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-26-2010 9:31 PM Adminnemooseus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-27-2010 11:03 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Iblis, posted 10-28-2010 1:09 AM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 103 by Stephen Push, posted 10-30-2010 8:44 PM shadow71 has not yet responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 16 of 154 (588788)
10-28-2010 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
10-28-2010 10:59 AM


Thank you all for your comments and the tenor of those comments. I would like to reply, but being new to the board it would surely help if I could reply by posting quotatons. I do not know how to do this. Can someone help me?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2010 10:59 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by nwr, posted 10-28-2010 11:38 AM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2010 11:40 AM shadow71 has not yet responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 21 of 154 (588805)
10-28-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
10-28-2010 12:21 AM


nwr wrote,
"If you wish to privately believe that "natural selection" is actually the name used for a supernatural intervention, then nobody is stopping you from holding that private belief. But I suggest you keep it private if you don't want people to laugh at you"
I publicly believe that there is a supernatural being that created the universe and all in it. I believe in "providence" and that all things are willed or allowed by a supernatural being.
My belief is that "natual selection" is a term coined by scientists to describe what God has and is continuing to create.
I think it was the physicist Paul Davies who is of the opinion that the universe is not a purposeless accident. That the physical universe was put together in a manner so astonishing that he is unable to accept it merely as "brute fact".
So I guess I am going back to the origin of the univese to argue that science is merely the investigation of what has been created and nature w/o a supernatural being would not exist.
When in my post I referred to "proof" I am using the term as a trial lawyer uses the term. There must be cause for example in a Medical malpractice case for the injury to the patient. In Science I belive there must be cause for what is happening in this universe, and I don't believe Science can prove that cause is natual.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 10-28-2010 12:21 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2010 12:33 PM shadow71 has responded
 Message 23 by hooah212002, posted 10-28-2010 12:44 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 10-28-2010 1:41 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 28 by nwr, posted 10-28-2010 2:06 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-28-2010 2:56 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 34 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 3:37 PM shadow71 has responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 24 of 154 (588815)
10-28-2010 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
10-28-2010 12:33 PM


Yes I am familar with the term God of the Gaps. I not filling in any gaps, I am statiing that it all happens as a result of God's creation.
Did God make evil? He gave man the choice by means of conscious reasoning to perform evil.
Why is belief in a supernatural so threatening to Science?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2010 12:33 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2010 1:44 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 27 by Iblis, posted 10-28-2010 1:52 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 35 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 3:41 PM shadow71 has not yet responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 33 of 154 (588832)
10-28-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by hooah212002
10-28-2010 2:45 PM


Dawkins, Dennett et al. are trying to convert people to atheism, thus evangical.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by hooah212002, posted 10-28-2010 2:45 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 3:44 PM shadow71 has responded
 Message 37 by hooah212002, posted 10-28-2010 4:33 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 39 by jar, posted 10-28-2010 5:31 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 68 by Granny Magda, posted 10-29-2010 8:28 AM shadow71 has responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 38 of 154 (588846)
10-28-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by subbie
10-28-2010 3:37 PM


Any lawyer who has ever tried a lawsuit knows he or she must sustain the burden of proof. Civil in Illinois is "more probably true than not true". The evidence determines whether you have sustained your burden of proof.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 3:37 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Iblis, posted 10-28-2010 5:43 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 43 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 5:52 PM shadow71 has responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 40 of 154 (588851)
10-28-2010 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by subbie
10-28-2010 3:44 PM


"If this book works as I intend, religious readers will be atheists when they put it down."
Preface to THE GOD DELUSION P.28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 3:44 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by nwr, posted 10-28-2010 6:08 PM shadow71 has responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 46 of 154 (588863)
10-28-2010 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by nwr
10-28-2010 6:08 PM


So you accept the fact that Dawkins is evangalizing?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by nwr, posted 10-28-2010 6:08 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by nwr, posted 10-28-2010 8:17 PM shadow71 has not yet responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 47 of 154 (588864)
10-28-2010 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by subbie
10-28-2010 5:52 PM


I don't want to nitpick with you but I have tried med mal and products lawsuits in cook, will, sagamon and other counties in ill. and the burden of proof for a jury to determine is "more probably true than not true" . Look at the jury instructions in Il and they state "more probalbly true than not true".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 5:52 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by subbie, posted 10-28-2010 9:57 PM shadow71 has not yet responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 48 of 154 (588873)
10-28-2010 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
10-28-2010 5:48 PM


Re: The Topic shadow, do you have anything related?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even if "The Shadow knows" you are not helping any of us understand.
What does even one of your posts so far have to do with evolution, Natural Selection or even a single example of Godly guidance?

The reason for my post was to show that scientists demand a different burden of proof for design theories than for naturalists theories. I argue that "natural selection" is not something you can prove, it is assumed that the changes in species are the result of natural slection, ie. by naturalists mechanisms. I argue that if God by providence has created the mechanisms for the evolution of life science rejects this because it cannot be proven by natural means. So if for example information is contained in the DNA, science assumes it is by natural causes, while I state it is by supernatural causes. Can you prove me wrong and you right? If so how.
So Scientists assume that the changes in species are natural and try to prove them by saying here we see the changes, they are natural, so design is wrong. But even if the changes occur, which I agree they do, science cannot prove they are by natural means or supenatural means. Science assumes all things are by natural means, w/o proof, a very dangerous assumption.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 10-28-2010 5:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Coyote, posted 10-28-2010 7:55 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 10-28-2010 7:57 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-28-2010 8:02 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 52 by jar, posted 10-28-2010 8:11 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 55 by nwr, posted 10-28-2010 8:50 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 64 by PaulK, posted 10-29-2010 2:28 AM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 66 by frako, posted 10-29-2010 6:56 AM shadow71 has not yet responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 72 of 154 (588968)
10-29-2010 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Granny Magda
10-29-2010 8:28 AM


Re: Dennett and Dawkins
Granny magda writes

Dennett is primarily a philosopher rather than a scientist. His specialities include philosophy of science and philosophy of mind. Obviously, he writes a great deal about cognitive and evolutionary science, but I do not feel that he is a fair exemplar of "a scientist".

Neither is Dawkins a typical example of "a scientist". Dawkins is actually not the most remarkable research scientist. His great strength has always been the communication of scientific ideas, rather than discovering them himself. Also, he is far better known these days for his atheism than his science. This is far from typical of scientists as a whole, most of whom prefer to... well, do science, rather than write polemics against Christianity.

The vast majority of scientists do not concern themselves with people's religious beliefs. Dennett and Dawkins do (and it would be fair to describe their zeal for de-conversion as "evangelical") but they are very far from being typical of scientists as a whole. You shouldn't let them colour your image of the average scientist.

thank you for your kind words. I agree with you about Dawkins and Dennett and was citing them for their advocacy, not there sciencetific writings. I have nothing but respect for most of the scientists I have been reading since my retirement. I posted my original message after a fairly through review of writings from neo-darwinists, creationists, philosphers, physicists, and scientists who advocate intelligent design such as Behe and Stephen Meyer.
My conclusion is that the design advocates are not getting a fair hearing in the scientific discipline. I was impressed by Meyers book SIGNATURE IN THE CELL DNA AND THE EVIDENCE FOR INTELLIGENT DESIGN,
He states that ID partly a historical look at the origin of life which strikes me as being similar to the scientific investigation of evolution. Thus my conclusion that Main stream science is not applying the same standard of proof to ID as to Science.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Created quote box. Use "peek" to see how it is done.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Granny Magda, posted 10-29-2010 8:28 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Wounded King, posted 10-29-2010 12:21 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 74 by jar, posted 10-29-2010 12:27 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 76 by Straggler, posted 10-29-2010 12:35 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 77 by Granny Magda, posted 10-29-2010 5:58 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2010 1:41 AM shadow71 has responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 79 of 154 (589070)
10-30-2010 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Dr Adequate
10-30-2010 1:41 AM


Re: Meyers
quote:
What would creationist research into the origin of life even look like? You take a beaker full of nothing and a beaker full of God, mix 'em together and see if you get a giraffe?

I have a question for you before I can answer your post. Do you consider theoretical physicists scientists?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fixed quote box - Added the "/" to the quote closer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2010 1:41 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Granny Magda, posted 10-30-2010 10:40 AM shadow71 has responded
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 10-30-2010 11:40 AM shadow71 has responded
 Message 93 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2010 6:22 PM shadow71 has not yet responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 81 of 154 (589073)
10-30-2010 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Granny Magda
10-30-2010 10:40 AM


quote:
Well I guess I've got a question for you; what the heck has theoretical physics got to do with the origin of life?

I have to establish groundrules to determine if design advocates meet the standards of scientists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Granny Magda, posted 10-30-2010 10:40 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 10-30-2010 11:37 AM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 84 by subbie, posted 10-30-2010 11:57 AM shadow71 has responded
 Message 85 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2010 11:58 AM shadow71 has responded
 Message 94 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2010 6:24 PM shadow71 has responded
 Message 112 by Granny Magda, posted 10-31-2010 11:23 AM shadow71 has responded

    
shadow71
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 86 of 154 (589086)
10-30-2010 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by subbie
10-30-2010 11:57 AM


subbie writes

quote:
I would say that the first, and most important, ground rule is that scientists question everything and assume the accuracy of nothing. This, of course, rules ID out right from the start since it begins with the assumption that the bible is inerrant.

You are wrong in your assumption that ID assumes the bible is inerrant. You are confusing ID and fundamentalist. Some fundamentalist believe the bible is inerrant (your phrasing not mine).
ID presents theories based on scientific investigation, ex. the information contained in DNA & the possible origins of that information and then states conclusions based on that investigation.
So I believe you should not group creationists and ID together. Michael Behe is not a creationists.
So I believe ID does meet your stated groundrule.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by subbie, posted 10-30-2010 11:57 AM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Coyote, posted 10-30-2010 12:51 PM shadow71 has not yet responded
 Message 90 by subbie, posted 10-30-2010 1:14 PM shadow71 has responded

    
1
2Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019