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Author Topic:   Is there Biblical support for the concept of "Original Sin"?
Phat
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Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 28 of 240 (589774)
11-04-2010 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by iano
11-04-2010 8:40 AM


Free Willy
Iano writes:
Paul talks of their disobedience making all men sinners not their sin.
And I suppose without disobedience we wouldn't have true free will....

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 Message 27 by iano, posted 11-04-2010 8:40 AM iano has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 152 of 240 (591479)
11-14-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by kbertsche
11-13-2010 10:16 PM


Two Questions
You have all presented your case for why original sin should be questioned and why the Bible can and should be read in context. The conclusion, if accepted, is itself disturbing.
1) If there is no such thing as original sin, why did Jesus need to come and why all the hoopla about Him coming back? The whole idea of God blessing us seems to have less need..less meaning now.
But that's not a huge problem. It just means that we now must be more personally responsible.
However....
2) IF God lied in the story, what possible analogy or reasoning would that even correlate with? My conception of God is as a Being who cannot lie. Jesus even said that the devil was the "father of lies." The plain reading of this text distorts and challenges the meanings that I learned. Its almost as if the day I learned that God could lie, I myself began to die. If I cant trust the Bible and the God of the Bible, whom can I trust?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 154 of 240 (591486)
11-14-2010 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
11-14-2010 11:42 AM


Re: Two Questions
jar writes:
So you limit what GOD can do?
No. I believe in a God of no limits. God can certainly do anything.
A God who is both good and bad is a shocker, however. Its like growing up in an abusive family. You cant trust your parent, so you must fend for yourself. The relationship with that parent is scarred perhaps for life. It was never supposed to be this way with God.

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 Message 153 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 11:42 AM jar has replied

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 Message 156 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 157 of 240 (591493)
11-14-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
11-14-2010 12:04 PM


Re: Two Questions
jar writes:
Good and bad depend on a human point of view.(...)The character called God in the story is not GOD
Critics would argue that you cannot know GOD except by reading of His character in the Bible (or god book or your choice) As Christians, we believe in one GOD and in Jesus Christ. That goes for most of the "club christians" that you refer to.
Lets say we were given this gift to know right from wrong, good from bad, that demands personal responsibility, as you say. When we then go to church to commune with our brothers and sisters, can we sing to and truly worship a God whom we don't know?
And since we were taught to believe in a book that is the Word Of God, how would we in any way be able to connect to God if the book itself were believed to be human opinions and interpretations?
Anyone could claim to know God with no credentials.

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 Message 156 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 12:04 PM jar has replied

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 Message 158 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 12:15 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 160 of 240 (591497)
11-14-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by jar
11-14-2010 12:15 PM


Re: Back towards the topic Phat, please.
Topic Phat, not rabbit holes.
OK. In conclusion, no., There is no Biblical support. Critics may argue that one needs to have the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Bible in context, but I will agree that plain reading of the text is arguably an effective way to support a discussion.

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 Message 158 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 12:15 PM jar has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 163 of 240 (591500)
11-14-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by jar
11-14-2010 12:42 PM


Charges of humanism versus Christianity
nwr writes:
But can't you tell that the God character in the Adam and Eve story is out of character with what we would normally think of as God? And isn't that part of what makes it obvious that the story is a fable?But can't you tell that the God character in the Adam and Eve story is out of character with what we would normally think of as God? And isn't that part of what makes it obvious that the story is a fable?
Yes, actually. My point is that it would be quite disturbing to some if the Bible was proven to be a collection of fables and human interpretations.
jar writes:
And that the story is not about God but about man?
Man writing about man. Man writing about our idea of God relating to man. Critics would say that interpreting the story teaching us what it means to be human is a celebration of humanism and not God nor Christ. Sin is a separation, a loss of awareness of the divine nature potentially given to us. Of course, that's another chapter of another club.

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