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Author Topic:   Can I disprove Macro-Evolution
frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 5 of 238 (589727)
11-04-2010 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JRTjr
11-03-2010 11:37 PM


find some part that could not evolve, find a fossil of a bunny rabbit that dates back to the dinosaurs,....

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 Message 1 by JRTjr, posted 11-03-2010 11:37 PM JRTjr has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 113 of 238 (590714)
11-09-2010 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ICANT
11-09-2010 3:22 PM


Re: DNA
Then if it did happen why isn't there at least one verified instance of 'Macro-Evolution' occuring?
Well because macro is loads of micro evolutions, when enough micro evolutions acure that we can call it a new species we call it macro evolution.
.
By moste definitions one is a member of the same species if one can sucsessfuly mate and produce an offspring that can do the same.
1. Two strains of fruit flies lost the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring in the lab over a 4-year span ... i.e. they became two new species.
The best-documented creations of new species in the laboratory were performed in the late 1980s. William Rice and G.W. Salt bred fruit flies, Drosophila melanogaster, using a maze with three different choices of habitat such as light/dark and wet/dry. Each generation was placed into the maze, and the groups of flies that came out of two of the eight exits were set apart to breed with each other in their respective groups. After thirty-five generations, the two groups and their offspring were isolated reproductively because of their strong habitat preferences: they mated only within the areas they preferred, and so did not mate with flies that preferred the other areas The history of such attempts is described in Rice and Hostert (1993).
from wiki but what the hell
Speciation - Wikipedia
2. A new plant species, created by a doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock
3. Multiple species of the house mouse unique to the Faeroe Islands occurred within 250 years of introduction of a foundation species on the island.
Just a moment...
The House mice (Mus musculus L.) of the Faroe Islands (62N, 7W) are frequently quoted as examples of rapid evolution, because they seem to be clearly differentiated both from mice in other parts of the world, and between different islands within the Faroe group despite being introduced through human agency within the last millennium. They are also of interest in being among the most climatically stressed mice in the Northern Hemisphere.
The present study is an attempt to determine the extent of differentiation between the populations on the six Faroe islands which harbour mice. It is based on size and organ weights, measurements on the mandibles and scapulae, non-metrical variation of the skeleton, and allozymic frequencies at 22 loci. Distance statistics calculated for all five groups of data between samples from each island compared with every other, showed that all the populations were clearly distinct. However the distances calculated from the different data were disconcertingly heterogeneous. The most likely explanation is that the different characteristics scored each depend on a relatively small number of different genes.
Taking all the results together, it seems most probable that mice first entered the Faroes via the main port of Torshavn and spread from there to Nols0y, Hestur and Sand0y, and from Sand0y to Fugloy and Mykines. The large inter-island differences can be attributed primarily to instant sub-speciation produced by each colonization depending on a probable small number of effective founders.
i have named 3 now can you name 3 species that poped out of thin air and had a note attached to them the desighner made me to prove creation
Now if you wait a while i will provide some links if i find them cause i know you will not take my word for it.
Edit found 2 links
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

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 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 11-09-2010 3:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 1:01 PM frako has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 123 of 238 (590837)
11-10-2010 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by ICANT
11-10-2010 12:11 AM


Re: 'Macro-Evolution'
Since all those modifications could be and was made by microevolution where is the 'Macro-Evolution'?
You and most Creos do not understand micro and macro evoulution are only terms used in 1927 to describe the same phenomenon on a diferent scale.
Micro evolution is when changes acure in the species, and macro when changes acure above the species level.
So micro is when say a breed of mice grow longer fur and can still mate whit the mice that did not evolve longer fur, macro is when enough micros happen that they cannot mate anymore whit the mice that did not evolve this way.
Moste creos belive that micro are small changes and macro is when a cat turns in to a dog in one step that is bullshit there is no such process macro is a combination of lots of micros enough that the ones that went trough the changes and the ones that did not cannot mate anymore.
For instance all dogs are the same species cause they can all mate and produce fertile offspring, if 2 breeds cannot mate there is still the possebility of them mating whit other breeds and those breds mating and producing fertile offspring. So all their changes are described as micro evolution.
The mice that where left on that island 250 years ago all came from the same breed though enough micro evoulution happend that they cannot mate whit their naighburing mice who also came from the same parrents, and they cannot mate whit the original mice mice breed, and neither can you mate them whit other mice brreds and then mate them whit the original or their naighbur so enough micros happend to call it macro evolution.

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 Message 121 by ICANT, posted 11-10-2010 12:11 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 4:36 PM frako has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 138 of 238 (591034)
11-11-2010 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ICANT
11-11-2010 12:13 PM


Re: More assertions from jar
So no My avatar is of a very large horse and a very small horse. They both are 100% horse with over 2000 pounds of flesh and bone difference. It would be physically impossible for them to breed. So according to the definition of species they are two different creatures
A grate dane cannot mate whit a Chihuahua and they are the same species though diferent breeds why?
because a grate dane can mate whit a noter breed and that other breed can mate whit a Chihuahua.
It is not about physical impossebility but genetic imposibility of mating

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 Message 136 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 12:13 PM ICANT has replied

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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 142 of 238 (591045)
11-11-2010 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ICANT
11-11-2010 1:01 PM


Re: Micro Macro
I will take your word for what you said above that I quoted.
But if you want to present 'Macro-Evolution' you need to provide an instance of one critter becoming a totaly different critter.
When that fruit fly ceases to be a fruit fly.
When that mouse ceases to be a mouse.
I would ask for something other than your word for that.
How different must this new critter be to be accepted by you as a new species?
Im guessing you would classify a gorilla and man as diferent species
Why cause one has fur the other dosent, one has a slightly larger brain, and one has opposing thumbs, they walk a bit diferently and have diferent teeth though all of the above can happen whit micro evolution as you have said what makes them a different species than us.
How much of a difference in your mind must 2 species have to be called 2 species and not the same species? The minimum difference please

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 1:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 6:04 PM frako has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 144 of 238 (591060)
11-11-2010 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ICANT
11-11-2010 2:16 PM


Re: Macro-Evolution
will this help
What is the common ancestor of chimps and humans?
You have pictures of 14 different skulls and some of them only being fragments.
The only thing you verified by these pictures is that a creature with that skull existed at one time. Anything else you claim is verified is nothing more than a conclusion.
Well no you can get some other information from this as well.
Human like sculls whit almost the same brain capacity or at least volume.
No other modern sculls at those times they only arrive late.
A similarety of the the newer sculls and older sculls implying an evolutionary process
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

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 Message 143 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 2:16 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 147 of 238 (591064)
11-11-2010 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ICANT
11-11-2010 2:32 PM


Re: Macro-Evolution
A man leaves point A and a man reaches point B where is the 'Macro-Evolution'?
Aggain what is the minimal amount of change a species must undergo to become a new species?

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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 149 of 238 (591069)
11-11-2010 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ICANT
11-11-2010 2:51 PM


Re: DNA
Not one verifiable instance of 'Macro-Evolution' has not been shown to have occured.
In your eyes now tell me how much change must one species undergo (the minimal amount) for it to be called a new species in your eyes and i will show you F%&$ macro evolution.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 152 of 238 (591080)
11-11-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ICANT
11-11-2010 3:06 PM


Re: 'Macro-Evolution'
We do not have a 4.6 billion years of history. We have a book of 4.6 million years with many chapters covering millions of years missing.
Yea our pitcure is not perfect but that does not mean you cant see the full picture if a few jigsaw pieces are missing.
How many pieces are to the god jigsaw how many do you have in place?
Oh and how much change must one species undergo for you to call it a nother species? If the line is not the possebility of sexual reproduction then what would you call the line.

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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 153 of 238 (591082)
11-11-2010 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by subbie
11-11-2010 3:38 PM


Re: 'Macro-Evolution'
So in other words, you won't believe it unless there's evidence of every single step of the way, until each and every question has been answered.
Of course, that's not science. That's irrationality.
And yet he belives in a god whit no other proof then the bible a book written by sheppards
go figure

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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 165 of 238 (591103)
11-11-2010 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ICANT
11-11-2010 4:36 PM


Re: 'Macro-Evolution'
Well this creationist believes that your mice that can not breed with other mice is still mice.
When they cease to be mice then 'Macro-Evolution' will have taken place.
So when would they cese to be mice, when would you stop cayyling them mice il find a simmilar example when you tell me what your definition of what makes seperate species is.
If that is true could you tell me where I could pick up a cross between a Great Dane and a Chihuahua?
Well if you want it unatural then insaminate a grate dane bitch whit chiuahua sperm, the way nature would do it though is mix a few together, a grate dane would f%&/ a smaller dog and a Chiuhaua a slightly bigger dog and the ofspring of those 2 dogs could mate retaining parts of the chiuaua and the grate dane.
You can call it anything you want to call it. But if you start with two mice and a billion years later you got trillions of mice and billions of them can not breed with each other because of changes or habits you still got trillions of mice, whether they can breed with each other or not.
So when do you stop calling them House mice, the second they go out the door well no cause they are still the same. Wehen they adapt to their new enviorment growing some parts larger some smaller, when.
On a nother note if those mice are mice then why is the buffalo a buffalo and not a cow they look the same they should be called cows so what they have a bit of fur and different horns everything else is roughly the same why are they buffalo and not cows what destiguishes a species in your eyes if not the fact of sucsesfull reproduction. Does every diferent species need a new organ well shit happens all mamals are the same species then.
What is the mechanism that you use to define 2 diferent species, what would the minimal changes haveto be in a house mouse to be called something different to be a different species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 4:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 166 of 238 (591104)
11-11-2010 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ICANT
11-11-2010 4:36 PM


Re: 'Macro-Evolution'
Well this creationist believes that your mice that can not breed with other mice is still mice.
When they cease to be mice then 'Macro-Evolution' will have taken place.
So when would they cese to be mice, when would you stop cayyling them mice il find a simmilar example when you tell me what your definition of what makes seperate species is.
If that is true could you tell me where I could pick up a cross between a Great Dane and a Chihuahua?
Well if you want it unatural then insaminate a grate dane bitch whit chiuahua sperm, the way nature would do it though is mix a few together, a grate dane would f%&/ a smaller dog and a Chiuhaua a slightly bigger dog and the ofspring of those 2 dogs could mate retaining parts of the chiuaua and the grate dane.
You can call it anything you want to call it. But if you start with two mice and a billion years later you got trillions of mice and billions of them can not breed with each other because of changes or habits you still got trillions of mice, whether they can breed with each other or not.
So when do you stop calling them House mice, the second they go out the door well no cause they are still the same. Wehen they adapt to their new enviorment growing some parts larger some smaller, when.
On a nother note if those mice are mice then why is the buffalo a buffalo and not a cow they look the same they should be called cows so what they have a bit of fur and different horns everything else is roughly the same why are they buffalo and not cows what destiguishes a species in your eyes if not the fact of sucsesfull reproduction. Does every diferent species need a new organ well shit happens all mamals are the same species then.
What is the mechanism that you use to define 2 diferent species, what would the minimal changes haveto be in a house mouse to be called something different to be a different species.

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frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 169 of 238 (591110)
11-11-2010 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by ICANT
11-11-2010 6:04 PM


Re: Micro Macro
Transmutation is a strong word meaning changing one element into another element. Example changing steel into gold. Non life into life. One creature into a totaly different creature.
That is 'Macro-Evolution'.
Ok ill take your word for it
So how much change in a house mouse would be needed at minimum for it to be a nother species.
If i grew a house mouse whit natural selection only, that had a rabbits tail horns and a gofers mouth would that be enough for it to be called a nother species or is more needed, would less sufice too?
I will hereby make a prediction that in the very near future that the word 'Macro-Evolution' will cease to be used except by creationist, or when someone is answering a creationist.
Wel it usualy is only used by creationists cause there is not much diference in macro or micro evolution.
When will you anwser the question i posted 5 times so far.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

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 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 6:04 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-11-2010 6:12 PM frako has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 176 of 238 (591117)
11-11-2010 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Zubbbra25
11-11-2010 6:12 PM


Re: Micro Macro
Why does it seem like ICANT is totally avoiding frakos question?
Simple any other description of what seperates species would lead to a total meltown of the way we structured species so far.
If he says looks then a buffalo is also a cow, an ape a man ....
If he says diferent organs, then almost all land animals are the same species.
What ever what not he makes up it disrupts the way we classify species now.
Two species are different when they cannot mate and produce a fertile offspring. After that you can classify them for their looks, organs, predecessors, eating habbits and what not else if you do not include the mating part as a line, all sorts of animals become the same species.
In a way he has defiriciated animals like this, a cow is a cow cause it has 4 legs, horns and tastes grate, a horse is not a cow cause it has no horns if it grew horns though it would be a horse whit horns. And a buffalo is not a cow cause it has furr if it lost its fur it would not be a cow but a furless buffalo. Simple logic for the simple mind
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-11-2010 6:12 PM Zubbbra25 has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 324 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 178 of 238 (591127)
11-11-2010 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by ICANT
11-11-2010 6:04 PM


Re: Micro Macro
I have no problem with your non breeding mice being a different species of mice.
But they are still mice.
Ok so you acnowlage that they are different species not breeds so what is then the problem of macro evolution being evolution above the species level.

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 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 6:04 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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