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Author Topic:   Simple evidence for ID
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 109 of 135 (294314)
03-11-2006 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Rawel Singh
03-11-2006 2:51 PM


Harmony in nature????
Why is the vast vast vast vast vast majority (and then some) massively hostile to life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-11-2006 2:51 PM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-11-2006 4:57 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 112 of 135 (294329)
03-11-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Rawel Singh
03-11-2006 4:57 PM


Re: Harmony in nature????
You were using the fine tuning argument for evidence of Intelligent Design. It strikes me as odd since the grand majority of the universe is hostile to life. I wasn't talking about people, belief or anything like that. I was simply saying how almost everywhere is hostile to life, which would indicate the universe is not particularly harmonic with life.
The more common counter argument is no that nature is fine tuned (or in harmony with) life, but that life has fine tuned itself to nature (or the tiny portion of it that is earth): Which is evolution.
As such this isn't evidence for ID, it is only evidence that life exists. Evidence that life exists is fairly self evident, so is uncessary.

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 Message 111 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-11-2006 4:57 PM Rawel Singh has replied

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 Message 114 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-11-2006 5:27 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 115 of 135 (294337)
03-11-2006 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Rawel Singh
03-11-2006 5:27 PM


hostile means uninhabitable
I am sorry, I do not get it. What has this got to do with design of the universe? You are talking of behavior, which is governed by the company one keeps and deeds done in ths and past lives.
I only mentioned behaviour to advise you that I wasn't talking about behaviour. If the universe was designed for life, why is the majority of the universe uninhabitable? Why is it hostile to life?
I can only feel sorry that you say "almost everywhere is hostile to life". It is not so
So far, we have found only one environment in the universe which is not hostile to life....earth. Even if we only count the solar system, the grand majority of it is hostile to life. Most of the universe is basically vacuum, which poses significant difficulty for life.
Violence cannot be denied but it does not exceed goodness
Most of the universe is devoid of violence. Indeed it is devoid of anything. Making it a hostile environment (it will kill you if you tried to live there).

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 Message 114 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-11-2006 5:27 PM Rawel Singh has replied

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 Message 116 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-11-2006 9:38 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 121 of 135 (294414)
03-12-2006 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rawel Singh
03-11-2006 9:38 PM


Re: hostile means uninhabitable
answers your question whether the universe was designed for life. Obviously the whole universe is not to be packed with life but to ensure that whereever there is life it has quality. Seems resonable?!
I disagree with jar that this is off topic. But most of what you said is, if not off topic, unrelated to anything that I said.
The quoted text is a little closer to the topic at hand (and some of what you said earlier). Leaving many objections to one side for the moment, you still have two problems:
1) Most of the inhospitability of the universe is not needed to ensure harmony for life here. It the universe was created for harmonious life, it could have been designed a heck of a lot nicer. Ask the dinosaurs about the universe being harmonious.
2) The fine tuning argument still has issues. Either the universe was fine tuned for our existence, or we are fine tuned for life on earth. We have evidence that populations of living organisms adapt to the environment and we have NO evidence that the environment adapts to living organisms.
Until you can show this fine tuning mechanism at work you have no actual evidence for it. Do you have any evidence of fine tuning going on that could not be simply explained in terms of life adapting to the environment?

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