Living According to Christ: Is it Reasonable?

I would like to discuss the teachings of the New Testament that instruct us on how to live. The specific question up for debate will be: given the difference between the mindset with which they were issued and the mindset with which we read them today, are such instructions reasonable and/or relevant in our present age?The New Testament presents a lot of teachings telling people how to live and how to behave. These how to live teachings often ask that individuals disregard their earthly wealth and worries to live a life in devotion of Christ and God. But, of course, Jesus preached, and Paul believed, that the world was soon to end. And it appears that many of Jesus', and Paul's, how to live teachings seem specifically tied to this belief:

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Matt. 5:33—48 (NRSV):

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'Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord." But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

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'You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

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'You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy." But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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Matt. 6:19—21, 25—34 (NRSV):

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'Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

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...

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'Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe youyou of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, "What will we eat?" or "What will we drink?" or "What will we wear?" For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

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'So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today.

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Mark 10:21—28 (NRSV):

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Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, 'You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.' When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

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Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, 'How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!' And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, 'Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.' They were greatly astounded and said to one another, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.'

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Peter began to say to him, 'Look, we have left everything and followed you.' Jesus said, 'Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this agehouses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutionsand in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.'

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I Cor. 7:25—31 (NRSV):

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Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

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It is now 2000 years since these things were conceived, and the mindset with which they were conceived is no longer a part of mainstream Christianity. These teachings were given under the belief that the end times were soon to come; that our earthly lives should not be given so much attention; that all who believed would soon be taken care of.This is not the mindset of today. Most do not count on a coming kingdom for their immediate needs, and live each day for the benefit of the next. In fact, many of these teachings have taken on a different importance in our present day: it is not that we give to rid ourselves, so we now believe, but rather to provide for others. But such an interpretation only addresses a small aspect of the teaching, and anyone living by such an interpretation is clearly failing to fulfill the teaching to the utmost. We are to rid ourselves of all earthly concerns, so these teachings say, and devote our life to Christ and God. Few live to this standard.So, for this thread I would like to discuss these teachings of the New Testament that instruct us on how to livethe teachings that all seem based in the belief that the world will soon end. Given the difference between the mindset with which they were issued and the mindset with which we read them today, are such instructions reasonable and/or relevant in our present age?In the 21st Century, is it reasonable to live like Christ commanded?If it seemed reasonable then but not so much anymore, how do we reconcile this with what is written?JonEdited by Jon, : Subtitle; edit to fix signatureEdited by Jon, : readabilityEdited by Jon, : Removed message to Admins...Edited by Jon, : Bible links more preciseEdited by Jon, : Jeesh... I made a mess...

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Luke 14:26 (NRSV):

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Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

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Clearly this was not approved by all early Christians, as can be seen by the more softened version in Matthew:

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Matt. 10:37 (NRSV):

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Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; ...

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I don't think you can make such a soft generalized argument given the passage in Luke; the argument that the purpose is to place religious conviction above life and family is better supported by the passage in Matthew I cited above. The passage in Luke is much more drastic than this and requires a much more drastic interpretation, or, alternatively, a simple denial of the reality of what is written. I am not sure why you feel I have taken my thread in the 'wrong' direction. The purpose of narrowing the topic down was to focus on only those instructions that may seem unreasonable given the present age. There are certainly many other instructions Jesus and his followers gave for living life, but few of them would cause any trouble for modern Christians were they to follow them in the fullest. Those may be interesting in a thread on their own, but this thread is meant to be about the problematic instructions specifically.Jon

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It is apparent that there can be much debated on the topic of whether or not Jesus' messageand indeed, his entire beliefwas apocalyptic. Excerpts from the earlier writings contained in the New Testament seem to indicate that he felt the end to be near:

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Mark 9:1 (NRSV):

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And he said to them 'Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.'

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Mark 13:24—31 (NRSV):

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'But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see "the Son of Man coming in clouds" with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

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'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

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And even the early followers apparently felt likewise:

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I Cor. 7:25—31 (NRSV):

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Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

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Yet, similar ideas expressed in later writings soften, or omit these references to the coming end, and occasionally contradict them:

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Matt. 16:28 (NRSV):

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Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

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I Thes. 4:15—5:11 (NRSV):

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For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

​

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When they say, 'There is peace and security', then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labour pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! But you, beloved, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. So then, let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober; for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

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Matt. 24:4—34 (NRSV):

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Jesus answered them, 'Beware that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, "I am the Messiah!" and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.

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'Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But anyone who endures to the end will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.

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'So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; someone on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; someone in the field must not turn back to get a coat. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, "Look! Here is the Messiah!" or "There he is!"do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, "Look! He is in the wilderness", do not go out. If they say, "Look! He is in the inner rooms", do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

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'Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven" with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

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II Peter 3:4—10 (NRSV):

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and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!' They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless.

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But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.

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Given this, it seems in the earliest days Christianity was an apocalyptic cult: the founder preached it; the followers believed it. It was only later, when the end began to appear more distant than first thought, that the religion ditched the apocalyptic message. We can see this in the gradual softening of the language used to reference the 'Second Coming'. In Mark, Jesus specifically states that his own disciples will not die before 'the Kingdom of God has come with power'; in Matthew, the references are softened. In one instance, the same passage from Mark is re-rendered to only state that the 'Son of Man' will come 'in his kingdom'. Jesus' mere presence fulfills this, as there is no longer any reference to the coming power of the Kingdom of God. Where the passages from Mark do not present as much trouble for Matthew, he leaves them unchanged; for example, it is much less specific to say that a generation will not pass away rather than to say that no members of a particular group of people will die.Paul expresses his belief that the end is near when he describes an 'impending crisis', and states that the 'present form of this world is passing away'. But even this seems shadowed in the reality of the daythat many Christians were dying before the promised return of Christ, as evidenced in, for example, I Thessalonians 4:13—18. As time marches, we see the situation worsen. Folk are no longer simply worried that the dead Christians will not get to see the kingdom, but are worried that the kingdom won't even come: II Peter 3:4. The only reassurance the author can give is to tell his audience that it could be thousands of years... talk about patience!All of this seems mismatched and shaky if we don't assume an apocalyptic origin to Christianity; the easiest way to fit everything together is to assume there was an initial feeling by Jesus (or so it is reported) and his followers of the imminence of the end. This belief was later abandoned; the beliefs of Jesus associated with it were softened, altered, reinterpreted (e.g., Luke) or left out in further accounts of his life; and later church teachings adjusted, when it became all too apparent that the Kingdom wasn't going to come any time soon.Interestingly, though, while references Jesus made to the end were not preserved in later gospels, some of his related advice was. The original relevance of this advice was tied to the belief that the world would soon end. The re-interpretation of this advice became a matter of great importance to Christianity as it coped with the inevitable failure of the predictions of its prophet.Anyway, that is a separate debate, and perhaps it would be more productive to go at this a different way. A couple questions for the Christians on the board: How do you interpret these instructions (the ones quoted so far)? When Jesus says to 'sell what you have, and give to the poor', and 'do not worry about tomorrow', how do you take his message?JonEdited by Jon, : Schpelling...Edited by Jon, : missing wordsEdited by Jon, : more bad grammar

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Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

But, of course, there are no instructions to not work. So where are you drawing this from?Jon

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I disagree. I have met many die-hard Christians who claim to love Jesus more than anything or anyone else. Entire families appear to function under this mindset. Whether cult-ish or not, it is certainly not behavior unusual to the modern Christian. I guess I wasn't certain what your argument was. Would you be able to offer a clarification?Jon

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Yes, of course. If it appeared I was interpreting the writings to indicate a belief in an actual end, then that was my error of poor explanation. As the quote by Paul shows, the 'end' was not an 'end of the world' per se, but an end of the way things are, a 'passing away' of the 'form of this world' (I Cor. 7:31).Jon

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I am wondering if you'd be able to provide any chapter-verse citations that you believe evidence these claims.Jon

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Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

How does that support the notion of Jesus' message being relevant today? What does Jesus' eternalness have to do with the continued relevancy of his message? Sure; but that still doesn't address the relevancy of his instructions in the modern era. Okay. How? How do his teachings still have relevancy? What can we do today that is still inline with the teachings of Jesus?Jon

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Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

I listed some very specific teachings in Message 1, Message 8, and Message 12:

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Matt. 5:33—48 (NRSV):

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'Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord." But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

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'You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

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'You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy." But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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Matt. 6:19—21, 25—34 (NRSV):

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'Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

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...

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'Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe youyou of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, "What will we eat?" or "What will we drink?" or "What will we wear?" For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

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'So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today.

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Mark 10:21—28 (NRSV):

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Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, 'You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.' When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

​

Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, 'How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!' And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, 'Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.' They were greatly astounded and said to one another, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.'

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Peter began to say to him, 'Look, we have left everything and followed you.' Jesus said, 'Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this agehouses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutionsand in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.'

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I Cor. 7:25—31 (NRSV):

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Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

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Luke 14:26 (NRSV):

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Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

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Matt. 10:37 (NRSV):

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Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; ...

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Mark 9:1 (NRSV):

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And he said to them 'Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.'

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Mark 13:24—31 (NRSV):

​

'But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see "the Son of Man coming in clouds" with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

​

'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

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I Cor. 7:25—31 (NRSV):

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Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

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Matt. 16:28 (NRSV):

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Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

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I Thes. 4:15—5:11 (NRSV):

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For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

​

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When they say, 'There is peace and security', then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labour pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! But you, beloved, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. So then, let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober; for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

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Matt. 24:4—34 (NRSV):

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Jesus answered them, 'Beware that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, "I am the Messiah!" and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.

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'Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But anyone who endures to the end will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.

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'So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; someone on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; someone in the field must not turn back to get a coat. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, "Look! Here is the Messiah!" or "There he is!"do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, "Look! He is in the wilderness", do not go out. If they say, "Look! He is in the inner rooms", do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

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'Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven" with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

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II Peter 3:4—10 (NRSV):

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and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!' They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless.

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But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.

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Do you find these teachings to still be relevant to today? How can/do you live by them without reducing the extent of their instructions? Can/do you go as far as the teachings require, or must you meet on a middle ground compromise between the needs of this world and the requests within the teachings?Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Would it then be unreasonable to expect anyone other than Jesus to live according to these instructions?Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

I'm not sure I can see how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand. Perhaps you could help me understand how it is related by trying to tie in some of your interpretations with the issues of modern-day living and the teachings Jesus gave on how his followers should live.Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

So then is it reasonable or not? Is there anything within the text that you believe justifies this interpretation of the teachings I've quoted? This still doesn't address to what degree it is reasonable to live according to the teachings. Have you anything to say on that matter?Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

You're still not addressing the issue. There are teachings which clearly instruct folk to give up all they have; not to worry about what they will eat; to hate their family as a true sign of fellowship in Jesus' group:

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Mark 10:21—28 (NRSV):

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Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, 'You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.' When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

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Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, 'How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!' And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, 'Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.' They were greatly astounded and said to one another, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.'

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Peter began to say to him, 'Look, we have left everything and followed you.' Jesus said, 'Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this agehouses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutionsand in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.'

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Matt. 6:19—21, 25—34 (NRSV):

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'Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

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...

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'Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe youyou of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, "What will we eat?" or "What will we drink?" or "What will we wear?" For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

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'So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today.

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Luke 14:26 (NRSV):

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Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

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How do you reconcile these instructions with the demands of modern life? How do you observe these teachings in a way that does not detract from them?Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

So you do not believe it is possible to live up to the instructions given? If so, why do you suppose they were given in the first place, and to what extent can one follow them? What in the text do you believe supports this interpretation? How so? Perhaps, but would you have followed Jesus' instructions to give away all you had? Have you? So you do not hate your father and mother, or your wife and children, or your brothers and sisters, or, yes, even your life itself? Not really; you're still floating around the issue and aren't providing the necessary textual evidence to support your interpretations of the teachings.I'm still left entirely confused as to how you see it possible to live according to some of these teachings of Jesus, and why you may or may not consider them unreasonable in today's world.JonEdited by Jon, : clarityEdited by Jon, : clarity... again

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

As far as I can tell, nothing in the passages you listed offers any textual backing to your interpretations of the instructions in question. Granted, this may be due to my own misunderstanding; if you would be so kind as to explain how and why these passages are relevant and supportive of your interpretation, it may help clear up this misunderstanding. I am interested in neither; I am trying to understand whether or not certain teachings of Jesus are relevant/reasonable to today's believers, and why they may or may not be sowhether their interpretation on the relevancy/reasonableness is supported within the text. I'm not sure how the opinions of others would assist me in understanding your position on this matter. If you're no longer interested in participating, that is fine; I've no intention of forcing you, and I appreciate your willingness to give your opinions on the matter and help me in my understanding.Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr