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Author Topic:   Living According to Christ: Is it Reasonable?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 122 (604613)
02-13-2011 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jaywill
02-13-2011 10:38 AM


The Whole Text and Nothing but the Text
He said "And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what thanks is it to you ? Even sinners lend to sinners that they may get back an equal amount."
He said if you lend to receive back, don't think you are doing something extraordinary.
Yes, he said this. But, he also said more; if you read further, to 6:35, you see (emphasis added):
quote:
Lk. 6:35 (NRSV):
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return;
When one reads the passage in its entirety, the charge becomes clear: lend, but do not expect repayment!
This is not a command not to have a treasure.
The 'treasure' against which Jesus is preaching pretty clearly relates to 'earthly possessions'"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth..." (Mt. 6:19, emphasis added). And in that regard, such a passage is right in line with the topic of this thread: as Earthly beings, is it reasonable to rid ourselves of all Earthly things as Jesus commanded?
So if I am a disciple of Jesus and also a wealthy businessman, My heart should be for the things of God. The money of the company may not be mine to use. But my private wealth can be used for His interests. Supporting the Lord's full time workers, the assistance of needy ones, and even the purchase gospel tracts and spiritual books are easier for such a one because of his wealth.
How do you find this interpretation compatible with the passages in question, which clearly relate the message that 'earthly wealth = bad'? Where in the teaching do you find the exception clause on which this interpretation seems to rely?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jaywill, posted 02-13-2011 10:38 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jaywill, posted 02-13-2011 3:50 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 48 by jaywill, posted 02-13-2011 4:01 PM Jon has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 47 of 122 (604614)
02-13-2011 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jon
02-13-2011 2:42 PM


Re: The Whole Text and Nothing but the Text
Yes, he said this. But, he also said more; if you read further, to 6:35, you see (emphasis added):
quote:
Lk. 6:35 (NRSV):
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return;
When one reads the passage in its entirety, the charge becomes clear: lend, but do not expect repayment!
Thanks. You are right. I was wrong. He said lend and do not expect anything in return.
I don't see why that would not be relevant to today though.
I have had lendings to me with no return. I too have done the same, by His grace.
The 'treasure' against which Jesus is preaching pretty clearly relates to 'earthly possessions'"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth..." (Mt. 6:19, emphasis added). And in that regard, such a passage is right in line with the topic of this thread: as Earthly beings, is it reasonable to rid ourselves of all Earthly things as Jesus commanded?
As noted to you before, you should remember that He said if they gave up things they would recieve more at this time. Since that is the case, some disciples giving up would always be with something. God can trust them to pass it on and/or use it to His purposes.
So just as you have put 2 and 2 together above in the lending passage, you should also consider fuller context of the personal property teaching.
So if I am a disciple of Jesus and also a wealthy businessman, My heart should be for the things of God. The money of the company may not be mine to use. But my private wealth can be used for His interests. Supporting the Lord's full time workers, the assistance of needy ones, and even the purchase gospel tracts and spiritual books are easier for such a one because of his wealth.
How do you find this interpretation compatible with the passages in question, which clearly relate the message that 'earthly wealth = bad'? Where in the teaching do you find the exception clause on which this interpretation seems to rely?
Jon
I will look again at it. But exprience matters to. It is not just a matter of a clear head. Anyone with a clear head can make an outline of the book of Romans or Matthew.
Some experience as a Christian is also needed to understand the Bible.
If not then Jesus would not have told the disciples that the Holy Spirit will lead them into all of the truth.
So we Christians have no only the text. We also have the examples of the first pioneers into this life. And the exprience of subsequent discipes down through the ages. And the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
" I have yet many t hings to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming." (John 16:13) .
After the ascension of Christ the church requires and has the guiding of the Holy Spirit into many other difficult matters.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 02-13-2011 2:42 PM Jon has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 48 of 122 (604615)
02-13-2011 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jon
02-13-2011 2:42 PM


Re: The Whole Text and Nothing but the Text
How do you find this interpretation compatible with the passages in question, which clearly relate the message that 'earthly wealth = bad'? Where in the teaching do you find the exception clause on which this interpretation seems to rely?
Where was Jesus buried when He had been crucified ? In whose tomb?
God was sovereign over many things related to Christ's birth and death. Had He not wanted Jesus to stay three days in the private tomb of a rich man, Joseph or Aremethea (a disciple), I am sure He could have circumvented it.
Some of the wealthy women who were disciples of Jesus must have supported the Christ and His disciples out of their's or their husbands wealth. I think that is why Luke mentions female disciples.
You cannot preach on earth and eat in Heaven. God does not expect His believers to.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 02-13-2011 2:42 PM Jon has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 49 of 122 (604616)
02-13-2011 4:08 PM


Abide in Me and I in you. (John 15:4)
Jon, you have selected some difficult statements of Jesus as examples of no longer relevant teachings.
But I think some of those statements were no less difficult then then they are now. Time has not made them difficult so that in 2011 they suddenly became less relevant.
All these difficult passages do to many of us is remind us of our need to enjoy Christ's indwelling grace to a deeper degree. Rather then drive us away from Jesus you are doing an excellent job of driving us TO the Lord.
For it is only by abiding in Him as branches in the true vine, that we can do anything.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 50 of 122 (604619)
02-13-2011 4:23 PM


Another Luke 6 passage
Another teaching from Luke 6 on giving:
"Give and it will be given to you; a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, they will give into your bosom.
For with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you in return." (Luke 6:38)
Christ has told His disciples to give without expecting a return. Christ has said do to others as you would want them to do to you (v.31)
Rather then regidity and impractical legality we see that the disciples are still free to "measure". As they measure OUT it will be measured TO them.
Jon seems to be trying to make a case that no Christian should have anything. And if a Christian has ANY measure he is not a disciple. But what I see in these commands are exhortations of the perfect attidude. And warnings of falling short.
It is not that you cannot be a follower of Jesus if your entire measure has not been given away. It is that you should expect that with what measure you do give it will be measured to you.
Pushing the teaching to a graceless and lifeless legality for a rational to dismiss Christ as irrelevant fail.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 51 of 122 (604671)
02-14-2011 8:37 AM


There is great and relevant reasonableness with the teaching of Jesus in Luke chapter 6. Anyone who trust in Christ to be a follower should not be discouraged by anything written there.
The teaching does not portray instant perfection from the first moment one believes in Christ. It portrays being perfected through a process of spiritual growth. Here is how I know:
"A disciples is not above the teacher, but everyone who has been perfected wll be like his teacher." (Luke 6:40)
Jesus Christ is the Master and the Teacher. The lovers of Jesus down through the ages are His disciples. A disciple may be tempted to be discouraged that he is far from being like the Teacher. But Jesus knows that a process of perfecting is taking place in the disciple.
"Everyone who has been PERFECTED ... WILL be like his teacher." (my emphasis).
While the disciple is following Jesus he or she should be in the process of being perfected. The Lord does not expect perfection instantly the moment one has decided to follow the Teacher. When he is perfected he will be like his Teacher.
The tone of this thread seems to be to discourage the disciples from even starting to follow Jesus. To follow, they imply, is not reasonable. But I say it is perfectly reasonable to enter into the process and education which will perfect the disciple to be like the Teacher.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 02-14-2011 11:03 AM jaywill has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 122 (604680)
02-14-2011 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by jaywill
02-14-2011 8:37 AM


What is the purpose of spreading your reply to a single message over four posts?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jaywill, posted 02-14-2011 8:37 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 02-14-2011 2:41 PM Jon has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 53 of 122 (604722)
02-14-2011 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jon
02-14-2011 11:03 AM


I don't know what goes on in your house and what interruptions may cause you to post a little at a time.
But I have a couple of foster kid toddlers coming in my office frequently with various requests. That may have had something to do with it.
Smaller length posts are sometimes better.
Is that your only concern ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 02-14-2011 11:03 AM Jon has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 54 of 122 (604800)
02-15-2011 12:12 AM


Along with the process of being perfected as a modern day disciple of Jesus there is also the needed to go deep into Christ and His teaching.
The relevancy of Christ words are found not in skating on the surface superfiscially but sinking one's roots, as it were, deep into the available Christ.
Here in Luke 6 we also see Jesus warning that His relevancy is in a deeper spiritual life and obedience:
"Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and does them, I will show you whom he is like.
He is like a man building a house, who dug and went DEEP and laid a foundation on the rock. And when a flood came, the river broke out against that house, yet it was not strong enough to shake it, because it had been built well." (Luke 6:47,48 my emphasis)
Those skating superfiscially over the surface of Christ's teaching are not that secure. Those who dug and went deep down to the rock are secure. The security I speak of is not the security of eternal redemption. That is obtained just by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God has raised Him from the dead.
This security is the security of relevancy in any age no matter how tumoltuous and chaotic as history has borne out. The Christian faith should have perished off the earth long ago except that some Christians dug down deep into His teaching.
So the house of faith stands even in 2011 A D to those who dig deep into the teaching.
But to those who do not the collapse of Christless lives and society will eventually overtake their world.
"But he who hears and does not do is like a man who built a house upon the earth without a foundation, against which the river broke out, and immediately it collapsed, and the crash of that house was great." (v.49)
All the superfiscial religion, as well as the humanism, atheism, agnosticism will witness the rotting of the foundationless world just at the end of this age.
I recommend Christ's words as more secure and relevant to these troubled times. But you have to dig deep into His ministry and lay a foundation on the Rock, Jesus Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Aurora
Junior Member (Idle past 4712 days)
Posts: 13
From: India
Joined: 12-09-2010


Message 55 of 122 (605263)
02-18-2011 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jaywill
02-13-2011 8:48 AM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
Hi jaywill,
jaywill writes:
Paul was a tent maker. That was relevant to have a profession then. Why not for a disciple to have a profession now?
Paul was a tentmaker before his conversion. After his conversion you know how preoccupied he was in spreading the gospel.
jaywill writes:
Luke was a phsycian. That was then relevant. Why not now?
Luke was a physician before he became a disciple of the apostle Paul and followed Paul until Paul's martyrdom.
jaywill writes:
Dorcas was some kind of seamstress who made clothing for the sisters in Jerusalem. That was relevant then. Why not now?
Dorcas's charities was the clothing of the poor with garments she herself made. Charities are good but not relevant to the point here.
jaywill writes:
Pheobe was a deaconess of the whole church. This may indicate that she had a large home in which to show hospitality. If that was relevant then why not today?
Phoebe was described by Paul as "our sister, who is a servant of the church that is at Cenchrea".
jaywill writes:
Zenas was a lawyer. If he was a Christian brother as well I expect he was (Titus 3:13) why would not a Christian lawyer be relevant today?
Paul calls Zenas "the lawyer." The meaning of this is, that, previous to his becoming a Christian, he had been a Jewish lawyer (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)
This is not cherry picking verses or collecting difficult passages from the New Testament. A true believer of early Christianity would have to believe the imminent return of Jesus and also be zealous in saving souls by spreading the gospel. Being born again, he would not live a worldly life and not worry about earthly wealth, because all his needs will be provided by the Lord. Guided by the Holy Spirit he would have to deny himself and carry the cross daily.
Given their faith, I believe its simply not possible for Paul or the disciples to be fully engaged in other economic activities because that will distract their main Mission. Imagine Paul after his conversion going back to tent making and earning his livelihood, he would be preoccupied with collecting raw materials, producing tents and marketing his products; if he married and raise a family his burden will be all the more. His business and his family would become more important than Jesus so that he cannot qualify as a true believer. You may try to reconcile them but that shows only how your interpretations evolve with the changing world. A half-way Christian or feel good only kind of Christian is not acceptable by the teachings of the New Testament.
Jesus said in Mathew 10:37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
jaywill writes:
Lawyers, seamstresses, doctors, tent-makers could be eagerly awaiting the Lord's return then. Why not now ?
Yes, they all awaited the Lord's return eagerly, as it was promised by Jesus and preached by the disciples/apostles. With nothing happening for thousands of years the Church had sidelined the issue but still even today some Christians expects the return to be very near. I have read somewhere that Jesus will return on 11 May, 2011.
Edited by Aurora, : corrected space
Edited by Aurora, : corrected quotes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jaywill, posted 02-13-2011 8:48 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2011 9:26 AM Aurora has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 56 of 122 (605278)
02-18-2011 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Aurora
02-18-2011 4:19 AM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
Paul was a tentmaker before his conversion. After his conversion you know how preoccupied he was in spreading the gospel.
While Paul was a full time apostle he often performed a job to support himself and his co-workers. He told the Ephesian elders:
"I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothing. You yourselves know that these hands of mine have ministered to my needs and to those who are with me. In all things I have shown you by example that toiling in this way we ought to support the weak and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." (Acts 20:34,35)
We can see that he set the example to the Christians in Ephesus by toiling at employment for his gospel team's needs and apparently was charitably giving also.
In Acts 18:3 we see Paul and Aquila were of the same trade, tentmaking. It apparently was Paul's present labor skill and he worked while staying with Aquila and Priscilla.
"And because he was of the same trade, he remained with them and worked for they were tentmakers by trade." (Acts 18:3)
Paul also tells the Thessalonians that those not working but only waiting for the second coming of Christ were disorderly and not being responsible. Then he reminds them that he and his coworkers were not so, meaning they worked to support themselves at that time:
"For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not disporderly among you; Nor did we eat bvread as a gift from anyone, but in labor and harship we worked night and day so that we would not be burdensome to any of you." (2 Thess. 3:7,8)
jaywill writes:
Luke was a phsycian. That was then relevant. Why not now?
Luke was a physician before he became a disciple of the apostle Paul and followed Paul until Paul's martyrdom.
I think it is naive to assume that he never practiced his trade while he accompanied Paul. And I just showed you how Paul and his coworkers would labor night and day toiling for their own needs if support was scarce or inconvenient.
It is likely that each who had a respective skill employed it at such times. The harsh realities of apostleship quickly became apparent to them that they could not preach on earth and eat in heaven.
Since I have personally known some full time workers for the gospel I know some of what they go through.
jaywill writes:
Dorcas was some kind of seamstress who made clothing for the sisters in Jerusalem. That was relevant then. Why not now?
Dorcas's charities was the clothing of the poor with garments she herself made. Charities are good but not relevant to the point here.
It is relevant to the point because if I recall, you said that a normal Christian should not have any time to devote to a artful skill. Dorcas proves you wrong in that.
The fact that they held up her handiwork with tears to Peter surely indicates that they were probably very nice creations.
"And Peter rose up and went with them. When he arrived, they led him up into the upper room. And all the widows stood by him, weeping and showing him tunics and garments, all of which Dorcas had made while she was with them." (Acts 9:39)
jaywill writes:
Pheobe was a deaconess of the whole church. This may indicate that she had a large home in which to show hospitality. If that was relevant then why not today?
Phoebe was described by Paul as "our sister, who is a servant of the church that is at Cenchrea".
SO WHAT ? The Christian "sister" was a spiritual "sister" like any other female disciple. And what she provided in the way of assistance to the whole congregation was a service like any other serving Christians.
I have no idea what you are attempting to prove with this above observation. Maybe it would help to read your New Testament for yourself. Jesus taught that the greatest among them is the one who is as a servant. And He Himself came not to be served but to serve.
jaywill writes:
Zenas was a lawyer. If he was a Christian brother as well I expect he was (Titus 3:13) why would not a Christian lawyer be relevant today?
Paul calls Zenas "the lawyer." The meaning of this is, that, previous to his becoming a Christian, he had been a Jewish lawyer (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)
You have no ground to assume that. And experience with the church life suggests the absurdity of your assumption.
Some congregations I have met with had people of various skills. And sometimes they were employed for the sake of the congregation. Christian brothers, who were also lawyers, may be called upon to assist the church.
Where I meet now we are legally obligated by the state to have yearly busniess meeting in order to qualify as a non-profit religious entity. These are Ceasar's rules. And regardless of what spiritual teaching and activities take place, the governament want to look at some numbers every year for tax information.
The brother called upon to conduct that yearly meeting is a professional lawyer. And I see no reason for you to assume that "Zenas the lawyer" insists that he no longer practiced his trade.
This is not cherry picking verses or collecting difficult passages from the New Testament. A true believer of early Christianity would have to believe the imminent return of Jesus
Any believer may long for and expect the imminent return of Jesus Christ. It is good for the spiritual life.
The Apostle John taught that the proper expectation of Christ's soon return had its purifying effect on the Christian:
"Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested waht we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is.
And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure." (1 John 3:2,3)
and also be zealous in saving souls by spreading the gospel. Being born again, he would not live a worldly life and not worry about earthly wealth, because all his needs will be provided by the Lord. Guided by the Holy Spirit he would have to deny himself and carry the cross daily.
I agree that we should be burdened for the gospel. I am. I also agree that we should not be entangled in the anxieties of keeping wealth. And also agree that we Christians must learn to have faith that God is our Father and knows our needs.
And I also agree that we have to deny ourselves and enjoy the indwelling Christ. I don't see what this has to do with proving that Christ's teaching is not relevant to today.
Since Jesus said concerning the good heart that receives the kingdom teaching that there were different levels of productivity, there will surely be varying levels of maturity among His disciples.
"But the one sown on the good earth, this is he who hears the word and understands, who by all means bears fruit and produces, one a hundredfold, and one sixtyfold, and one thirtyfold." (Matt. 13:23)
You seem to be trying to force a legality of " hundredfold or you're not a Christian ". And the sad thing is it appears you are doing this not because you really care about the Lord's return, but to reason that the Lord is not relevant anymore.
At any rate the different levels of spiritual return produced from the believing heart show that Christ expected varying levels of maturity in those who heard the Gospel of the kingdom.
What ought to be and what is are not always the same.
And judging from the whole history of the Bible it was usually only a remnant or a minority of the total number of followers who were at the "ought to be" standard of normality.
This did not make God and Christ irrelevant then or now.
Given their faith, I believe its simply not possible for Paul or the disciples to be fully engaged in other economic activities because that will distract their main Mission.
That could because like many skeptics and atheists, you reason without God. Paul was fruitful while in prison. And it could be that he was more used by God while toiling in a day or night job then in giving four messages a day in gatherings.
The book of Acts shows how God could use Paul in unexpected circumstances. And we should not limit God's power to our religious imagination. He is full of surprises.
It is the consecrated life which He can use. When God obtains the consecrated heart labor is resting. We are still learning this.
Don't reason without God assuming that only through man's blood, sweat, time, and tears anything can be done for the Gospel. Paul's most powerful word was his work of prayer that moved God's hand and touched God's throne.
So sometimes they had free time to travel and preach and sometimes they had to toil and work. In either case they spread the "fragrance" of Christ around whereever they were. They lived Christ. What they preached is what they lived.
And it should be the same today. Thankfully with many servants of Jesus it is.
Imagine Paul after his conversion going back to tent making and earning his livelihood, he would be preoccupied with collecting raw materials, producing tents and marketing his products;
It all depends on WHY he had to do so. You can work at a job doing all to the glory of God. Or you can work at a job only to make it in the world system.
I do not know exactly what Paul did after giving his life over to Christ. But he loved Jesus. He loved Him to an extraordinary degree. And he did whatever he had to do for the Lord Jesus. By the time we see him really active and writing epistles I am sure Christ had prepared him and led him through many educational experiences which he needed.
There was not proudful reluctance to do tentmaking once he was an apostle. He did as the Holy Spirit led him and as the need was there. Apostleship is intensly practical. And the churches that Paul founded were founded on practicality.
You should not try to evaluate Paul's apostleship through the lense of the modern day clergy / laity system. Christianity is largely deformed and degraded as a world religion.
This was prophesied by Christ and forewarned by Paul and Peter. However, the church cannot be defeated by the gates of Hades. And even today millions of Christians are experiencing a more recovered and normal church life as we read about in the NT.
Don't expect it to be covered by CNN. The world is not interested in things regarding the kingdom of God.
if he married and raise a family his burden will be all the more. His business and his family would become more important than Jesus so that he cannot qualify as a true believer.
It was Paul's choice to remain unmarried. Peter was married and that apostle accomplished much for Christ's interests also.
Saying that to have a family one cannot be a "true believer" is absurd and slanderous. Is your only interest to slander and to accuse - to ascribe guilt?
You know the accusing Satan accuses the saints of God day and night (Rev. 12:10) - "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before God day and night"
Maybe your thoughts are always being filled up with accusations from Satan against the Christians. It seems that you are laboring to invalidate them.
But you know "they overcame him [the accuser] because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (v.11)
I'd rather that you partake of Christ's redemption and become a normal Christ loving follower of Jesus. Why waste a life being the accuser's fool allowing Satan to pour his slanderous accusations into your mind day and night ?
Even if you can legitimately point to some poor examples of Christian disciples you will not hold away the kingdom of God and the authority of His Christ. Wouldn't you rather be on the prevailing side ?
So put away your accusations and get washed in the blood of Jesus to follow Him. Repent of trying to invalidate His gospel and receive His words of salvation instead.
You may try to reconcile them but that shows only how your interpretations evolve with the changing world. A half-way Christian or feel good only kind of Christian is not acceptable by the teachings of the New Testament.
You have no idea what a "feel good" Christian is. A "feel good" Christian knows that nothing present or to come or any other creature can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. His name is the highest in this age and in that which is to come. And those words were written 2000 years ago. So whatever ages have passed, Christ's name is still the highest.
Who do you point to who has superceded Jesus Christ is wisdom ? Whose example would you point to as more relevant ?
The changing times have not made the word of God obsolete. Jesus Christ is still Lord. That is the good news. He is still the conqueror over every foe.
Jesus said in Mathew 10:37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
So what ? Do you think that was somehow easier to hear 2000 years ago then today ? I don't see any difference.
As long as their is self love there will be the need to love Christ more than the fallen Adamic soul. It is not more difficult to choose Jesus over soul life today then it was in that century. Why do you think TIME has changed the issue at all.
And this passage is not related to eternal salvation and eternal redemption. It is just that forgiveness is not an end in itself. And to be a normal follower of Jesus AFTER eternal redemption we have to deny our soul life.
How can you follow the Lord if you follow yourself ? Time has not changed that so that today it has become not relevant but in the first century it was.
The more you enjoy Christ within the easier it gets to lose the old self centered soul life. I could not say I have arrived. But I surely can say I am in the process of being discipled in Christ. I love the Lord.
jaywill writes:
Lawyers, seamstresses, doctors, tent-makers could be eagerly awaiting the Lord's return then. Why not now ?
Yes, they all awaited the Lord's return eagerly, as it was promised by Jesus and preached by the disciples/apostles. With nothing happening for thousands of years the Church had sidelined the issue but still even today some Christians expects the return to be very near. I have read somewhere that Jesus will return on 11 May, 2011.
Forget about dates.
Look, we're still awaiting. We are eagerly still awaiting after 20 centuries. We are not awaiting and doing nothing.
Let me change my tone with you for a moment. If Jesus should come back at 12:00 PM tonight where will you be at 12:01 ?
You should be thankful that we are still spreading the gospel over the world. And you too can enter.
Look, get a grip and understand. If there is a minority or remnant of followers of Jesus who are really normal and up to the standard, then the passage of time allows Him to collect more and more of them in Paradise awaiting resurrectrion.
So if in any decade only a remnant of all the believers were really fully consecrated, then as time passes Christ accumulates more and more of that remnant. Then when He comes to set up His kingdom over the globe, He has that accumulated group to reign with Him as co-kings.
I am serious. This is exactly what we see in the book of Revelation. I would also advise you to read the story of Gideon's little army of 300 in Judges 6:1 - 8:12.
I am shortening this post with some deletions.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Aurora, posted 02-18-2011 4:19 AM Aurora has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Straggler, posted 02-18-2011 10:13 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 68 by Aurora, posted 02-19-2011 2:51 AM jaywill has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 57 of 122 (605279)
02-18-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by jaywill
02-18-2011 9:26 AM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
Jaywill writes:
If Jesus should come back at 12:00 PM tonight where will you be at 12:01?
Where are you suggesting we would be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2011 9:26 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2011 10:47 AM Straggler has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 58 of 122 (605281)
02-18-2011 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Straggler
02-18-2011 10:13 AM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
Don't be a "straggler" when it comes to believing in the Savior Jesus. You put the rest together.
Besides, the end could be for anyone of us at any time. For all intents and purposes the second coming of Christ to any of us could happen on the highway on the way home.
You have no garuantee as to when your last opportunity to be saved will be.
So don't be a straggler. Accept the Lord and Savior Jesus today. Take care of that first then take care of how to be a normal victorious follower of the Lord by His grace.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Straggler, posted 02-18-2011 10:13 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Straggler, posted 02-18-2011 10:55 AM jaywill has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 59 of 122 (605282)
02-18-2011 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jaywill
02-18-2011 10:47 AM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
Jaywiill writes:
If Jesus should come back at 12:00 PM tonight where will you be at 12:01?
Straggler writes:
Where are you suggesting we would be?
Don't be a "straggler" when it comes to believing in the Savior Jesus. You put the rest together.
I still don't know where you think I will be at 12:01 if Jesus returns at midnight tonight. Where do you think I will be?
Jaywill writes:
You have no garuantee as to when your last opportunity to be saved will be.
Do you think it is reasonable to live each day as if Jesus were going to come again at midnight? That is a lot of goodbyes to undertake on a daily basis.........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2011 10:47 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2011 11:14 AM Straggler has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1957 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 60 of 122 (605283)
02-18-2011 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Straggler
02-18-2011 10:55 AM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
I still don't know where you think I will be at 12:01 if Jesus returns at midnight tonight. Where do you think I will be?
Come on Straggler. This was just an illustration and not a detailed study of eschatology.
Prophecy in the Bible usually only gave a sketch of what was to happen. There was room left for surprise. So take the principle rather then forcing the issue of details.
Whenever Christ physically comes again most people will have the feeling that it is too soon rather than too late. His delay is an opportunity for the unbelievers to be saved.
That is the principle of the 12:00 / 12:01 thing. Time will run out for the unbeliever. That's the point.
Jaywill writes:
You have no garuantee as to when your last opportunity to be saved will be.
Do you think it is reasonable to live each day as if Jesus were going to come again at midnight? That is a lot of goodbyes to undertake on a daily basis.........
When you really love someone you long to be together. And no one is as lovable as Jesus.
And while you are loving Jesus and letting Him fill your heart, you have the assurance that you are giving your loved ones the best company that you could possibly give them. You don't have to feel guilty that you won't see them. Maybe you will. Maybe they'll be coming with you.
At any rate to live Christ and to be filled with His Holy Spirit, you have the joy of knowing you are giving your mother, your father, your brother, your sister, your children, your spouse, your friends, and even your enemies the best company you could be giving them.
You're giving them the Jesus you are living, even spontaneously without effort.
It is ironic and paradoxical. Jesus said love Him above all other family relationships. But by loving Him so you are giving them the greatest life and teasure to them.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Straggler, posted 02-18-2011 10:55 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Straggler, posted 02-18-2011 11:27 AM jaywill has replied

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