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Author Topic:   Living According to Christ: Is it Reasonable?
frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 91 of 122 (606313)
02-24-2011 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by jaywill
02-24-2011 6:03 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
The root of my position is that it is reasonable to love and accept Jesus as the Savior, the Lord, the Son of God.

I have not seen from you or anyone else here yet sufficient reason to believe that it is not reasonable to be a Christian today.

If you think that somehow providing a defeater to Pascal's Wager does that job for you, then write it up. I'll see if it has the same effect on me.

Well i rather be a Buddhist then a Christian they usually stay on the right side of a moral argument, and they have a better attitude twords those who are not in their club.

God may not be real to you. That does not mean that God is not real. Most likely the matter that causes God not to seem real to you is your sins which need forgiveness.

Do you want to bet that if we pile up my sins and your sins your stack would probably by allot higher, and by reverse if we stack up good deeds im willing to bet my house my stack would be higher. And im not a Christian, nor cant i be any kind of deist my mind just goes error error does not compute when i hear ferry tales of invisible sky daddies loving me and snapping their fingers to preform miracles.

If Jesus Christ is not real to you, if God is not real to you, it is not because of Pascal's Wager. God is not real to you because your sins and iniquities need God's forgiveness that the way of fellowship between you and God can be opened.

Told you i dont sin iv done nothing that would merits forgiveness by him or anyone else.

Tough i dont use the bible as my moral compass i have my own its pretty simple just dont be a cunt and your a good person.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 92 of 122 (606315)
02-24-2011 6:32 PM


Is this what you're interested in Straggler ?


Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal that, even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Pascal formulated his suggestion uniquely on the God of Jesus Christ as implied by the greater context of his Pensées, a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise on Christian apologetics. However, some argue that Pascal's Wager also applies to gods of other religions and belief systems.

Pascal states, however, that some do not have the ability to believe. In this case, he directs them to live as though they had faith, which may lead them to belief. The Wager was set out in note 233 of his Pensées.

Historically, Pascal's Wager was groundbreaking as it had charted new territory in probability theory, was one of the first attempts to make use of the concept of infinity, marked the first formal use of decision theory, and anticipated the future philosophies of pragmatism and voluntarism.[1]

Well, Pascal may have had a point that one should Gamble this way.

I can see why when I talked about God's delaying of judgment that you wanted to make Pascal's Wager as the only point I had.

However, I was only speaking to the benefit of God's longsuffering in the matter of the second coming of Christ.

Maybe your assumption is that the reality of God cannot be known so it is better to GAMBLE according to Pascal's Wager.

But I don't think it is true that God cannot be known. I mean to know God. I don't mean to simply know ABOUT God.

No, the Christian life is not just a GAMBLE according to Pascal's wager, with NO sure knowledge of God Himself.

The night Christ became real to me, the thought of the last judgment was not in my considerations at all. My problems were very much tied to the here and now. I don't recall something like Pascal's Wager urging me on.

But like I said before, HOW one comes to Jesus Christ is not important. That one COMES to Jesus Christ, however, THAT is important.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 93 of 122 (606317)
02-24-2011 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by frako
02-24-2011 6:17 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
Well i rather be a Buddhist then a Christian they usually stay on the right side of a moral argument, and they have a better attitude twords those who are not in their club.

Sounds like you are reacting to political activism from the Religious Right.


God may not be real to you. That does not mean that God is not real. Most likely the matter that causes God not to seem real to you is your sins which need forgiveness.

Do you want to bet that if we pile up my sins and your sins your stack would probably by allot higher,

I know mine were high. I know I am worst then you.

Coming to Jesus Christ is like a circle being drawn around you and only you in all the world. It is a moment when the OTHER GUY is not in the picture. You are alone before God. You and God. God and YOU ... YOU.

This silly attitude "Well, I bet I am less of a sinner then you are" is not relevant.

When your own house is dark inside at night, you can see out the window what is going on in other people's houses. But when the lights come on in your own house filling the rooms with light, you are only aware of everything that is in your house.

Coming to Jesus Christ is like this. Before you could gloat, point, and complain about other people's sins.

But a time comes when the circle includes you and no one else. Who you think you are better then or worse then is totally irrelevant at the time.

So if you want to argue that "jaywill, you were a bad sinner and worse then me. So you need Jesus. But I need Jesus much less." Go ahead. I know of no one in need of Christ's redemption as much as myself.

"To me, less then the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel." (Eph. 3:8)

Having obtained this redemption I pass on to others the good news as He commanded me. This is not a contest as to who was more of a sinner, you or me.

I was worse. I am worse. You have no idea how low I fell. You may be a Nicodemus, a good man, a victor of the people. Still Jesus says to Nicodemus the outstanding teacher - "You must be born again"


and by reverse if we stack up good deeds im willing to bet my house my stack would be higher. And im not a Christian, nor cant i be any kind of deist my mind just goes error error does not compute when i hear ferry tales of invisible sky daddies loving me and snapping their fingers to preform miracles.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

Efforts to trivialize the words of Jesus are only good for a fleeting and childish etertainment.

I find that this mechanism comes about frequently from an over entertained generation. When the mind is filled with too much fiction, games, TV, movies one may be tempted to think the word of God is just entertainment also.

But the issues of the New Testament are too serious to be dismissed this way.


If Jesus Christ is not real to you, if God is not real to you, it is not because of Pascal's Wager. God is not real to you because your sins and iniquities need God's forgiveness that the way of fellowship between you and God can be opened.

Told you i dont sin iv done nothing that would merits forgiveness by him or anyone else.

Do you really believe that ?


Tough i dont use the bible as my moral compass i have my own its pretty simple just dont be a cunt and your a good person.

You may have a great moral compass. And you may live perfectly from today on. But what about what you did ?

You will not live a sinless life from today on with your moral compass. And your moral compass often does not keep you from doing the good that you know to do. And sometimes it does not stop you from doing the evil that you know not to do.

You just have a knowledge of good and evil, of which you may be very proud. But you do not PERFORM the good that you know all the time. And you do not resist the evil that you also know all the time.

So there is real guilt before the Ultimate Moral Law Giver. Others in your life, could they come forward to speak, would tell you that you sometimes did them dirt. Others could tell you that you were in fact not always innocent towards them.

God has a record. There are no mistakes in it. It is infallible. You should understand that God has an infallible record of your life.

And you do need forgiveness from this One. It cost Christ His life on the cross to save you from that record of your real iniquities. It is not a comic book matter.

It is important because we all have a rendevous coming with God and with the truth.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 3259 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 94 of 122 (606330)
02-24-2011 8:21 PM


Wow...this topic seems to have started a spitting contest about who is the better person.....well I guess that is ok but it cant be proved or dis-proved by anyone....except god ...if you believe??? am I wrong...each of us has a set of morals, if you will, that guides us...mine might differ from yours....
In a purley religious view. based,on what I understand, then you can try...but will fail...but all you got to do is try and be honest about it...then ask for forgiveness and all will be well...long as you believe...Even if you do terrible things and know they are wrong...ask for forgiveness, and mean it...wish you could change it and ask for forgiveness and it will be granted...
Seems like a good deal....a free pass even....I can always ask for forgiveness later...right??

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 95 of 122 (606372)
02-25-2011 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by fearandloathing
02-24-2011 8:21 PM


...Even if you do terrible things and know they are wrong...ask for forgiveness, and mean it...wish you could change it and ask for forgiveness and it will be granted...
Seems like a good deal....a free pass even....I can always ask for forgiveness later...right??

You are assuming that God only has one binary way to deal with people - either they will be eternally saved or eternally lost. The scope of possible dealings with those who are eternally redeemed is wide. God is not so foolish as you imagine.

If you read the New Testament carefully you will see that eternal redemption automatically renders it impossible for you to remain the same kind of person you were as when you sinned.

Being redeemed you enter into the process of sanctification and transformation. And there is a judgment reserved for only the saved, regarding this. For judgment begins at the house of God.

The Father is too wise. He begins judgment with those of His own household. And the wise Father has other ways to perfect and discipline His own besides eternal punishment.

So assuming the kind of mockery and license as a "good deal" utterly will not work for you. God is not mocked.

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 96 of 122 (606375)
02-25-2011 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by jaywill
02-24-2011 6:03 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
Your belief in the reality of that which you need to believe is real is indeed strong. Nobody disputes the strength of your belief. But is personal need to believe in something a basis for calling belief in that thing "reasonable"?

Jaywil writes:

The root of my position is that it is reasonable to love and accept Jesus as the Savior, the Lord, the Son of God.

Without invoking a sermon, berating me with scripture or citing a list of things that you think would be lacking in your life if you didn't believe in Jesus can you tell me why you think it is reasonable to hold this belief?

Because every single member of every other religion and all of those who hold no particular religious beliefs at all are failing to see the reasonableness of your position that you find so self-evident.

Frankly your beliefs seem to be borne of need rather than reason.

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This message is a reply to:
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 Message 97 by jaywill, posted 02-25-2011 9:46 AM Straggler has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 97 of 122 (606391)
02-25-2011 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Straggler
02-25-2011 8:29 AM


Re: Pascals Wager
I am constrained by His love. I am constrained by the fact that I find nobody and nothing more valuable or more worthy of my devotion.

Christ told me to seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all other necessary things will be added to me.

Frankly your beliefs seem to be borne of need rather than reason.

You talk about my great need to believe in Christ. Maybe you should talk about your need to ignore Jesus Christ.

Why do you have such a need to dismiss His life and claims ?

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2011 10:10 AM jaywill has responded

Straggler
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 98 of 122 (606406)
02-25-2011 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by jaywill
02-25-2011 9:46 AM


Re: Pascals Wager
If I wanted to ignore Christ it would be very easy for me to do so. I certainly wouldn't hang out on a debate board filled with bible thumpers and scripture screamers. In addition I doubt all those that believe in alternative religions do so in order to denounce Christ in the way you are implying.

But none of this answers the question. Is your evident need to believe in Christ sufficient basis upon which to describe your belief in Christ as “reasonable”?

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 Message 99 by jaywill, posted 02-25-2011 12:20 PM Straggler has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 99 of 122 (606422)
02-25-2011 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Straggler
02-25-2011 10:10 AM


Re: Pascals Wager
If I wanted to ignore Christ it would be very easy for me to do so. I certainly wouldn't hang out on a debate board filled with bible thumpers and scripture screamers.

I'm sorry if you never had anything worth being excited about. Since we're writing here rather then speaking verbally you have no idea how loud I am thinking let alone speaking or if I am thumping on anything.

And I don't see the board "filled" with bible thumpers. I notice that these boards and topics are more often "filled" with anti-theists and anti-biblicists.

Take a look at the thread topics all over the Forum. I'd say you have a pretty hefty representation of so called "free-thinkers," agnostics, anti-creationists, atheists, atheistic Evolutionists, and skeptics.

If I paused I could count on one hand the number of Christians (like me) stupid enough to continue posting in this den of skeptics, where old timers have made abundantly clear to me years ago, that they intend to debunk Christian faith on multiple fronts.

Yes you don't "ignore" Christ the way Pilate or Herod didn't "ignore" Christ. But you don't believe in Him.

I'd like to know why you have this deep need to disbelieve in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ for your salvation.


In addition I doubt all those that believe in alternative religions do so in order to denounce Christ in the way you are implying.

I am not implying that about all other presenters of religions here. I asked a specific poster what his philosophy offered instead of the benefits my faith in Christ offered.

The questions has not been answered yet.


But none of this answers the question. Is your evident need to believe in Christ sufficient basis upon which to describe your belief in Christ as “reasonable”?

Sure I need to believe in God. God created me and placed that need within me.

If you think the need comes from somewhere else or evolved, you're welcomed to explain how.

The whole "reasonableness" matter I already summed up. For me, if I am going to be a human being, it is most reasonable that I be a follower of Jesus Christ. He is the best representative of humanity.

And He is available for me to know.

And it is also reasonable to love Him because He so loved me. He seems to have loved me more than Himself. And if this is indeed God incarnate as a man, that fact is astounding.

He loved me and gave Himself up for me. Returning even some of that profound self-giving love, is, I think, according to the best reasoning.

You can have a different opinion about that. But that is how I reason. And I find Christ relevant to this very modern time.

It is interesting to me that the skeptical and unbelieving mind has many varied excuses for not believing in this Son of God. If Christ had come in the last 100 years they might say:

"Well, it is not an old enough teaching. It hasn't been tested in ancient times. It is not as good as the older wisdom which has lasted many thousands of years. It is too recent and fadish."

But if Christ came two thousand years ago you get this:

"Well, that was back in the days when people didn't have much science. They were naive and tended to be superstitious. These are modern times now and we know much better what is going on. So the teaching is too old."

This kind of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" excuse making goes on a lot. This is just not wanting to hear from God period.

Anyway, I am constrained by the astounding love of God in Christ. And He is available for me to know as the Holy Spirit.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2011 12:46 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 102 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2011 1:09 PM jaywill has responded

frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 100 of 122 (606427)
02-25-2011 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jaywill
02-24-2011 7:03 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
So why then are you calling me a sinner and that that is my insulation against god ????

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 101 of 122 (606430)
02-25-2011 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jaywill
02-25-2011 12:20 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
Jaywill writes:

I asked a specific poster what his philosophy offered instead of the benefits my faith in Christ offered.

The questions has not been answered yet.

Oh I see. You are asking me what benefits I personally gain from not believing in Christ. Is that right? If that is your question then I guess my answer is that I don't decide what to believe on the same sort of cost-benefit-pascals-wager basis that you evidently do.

I simply find the evidence for Christ's existence as lacking as all the other equivalents and thus don't believe in any of them. Certainly I see no reason to choose Christianity over any other religious doctrine.

Jaywill writes:

Sure I need to believe in God. God created me and placed that need within me.

Of course he did.

Is your evident need to believe in Christ sufficient basis upon which to describe your belief in Christ as “reasonable”?

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7148
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 102 of 122 (606437)
02-25-2011 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jaywill
02-25-2011 12:20 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
I'd like to know why you have this deep need to disbelieve in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ for your salvation.

Classic fundie wordplay. I do not think many if any atheists have a"need to disbelieve". No valid reason to believe has been presented. It is delusional to believe in something that has no evidence.

Also, I for one do not feel any need for salvation. Salvation from what? Turning into worm dirt? That is what happens to us. A consequence of life is death. I have no need or desire for any "eternal" life you seem to think exists somewhere.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jaywill, posted 02-25-2011 12:20 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jaywill, posted 02-25-2011 1:15 PM Theodoric has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 103 of 122 (606439)
02-25-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Theodoric
02-25-2011 1:09 PM


Re: Pascals Wager

Classic fundie wordplay. I do not think many if any atheists have a"need to disbelieve". No valid reason to believe has been presented. It is delusional to believe in something that has no evidence.

Also, I for one do not feel any need for salvation. Salvation from what? Turning into worm dirt? That is what happens to us. A consequence of life is death. I have no need or desire for any "eternal" life you seem to think exists somewhere.

Enter Theodoric !

Here comes another bible thumper to join to glut of fundies overruning EvC Forum.

Can't we have a little balance here fellas? We need a few more skeptical voices, No ?

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1055 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 104 of 122 (606441)
02-25-2011 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Straggler
02-25-2011 12:46 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
Oh I see. You are asking me what benefits I personally gain from not believing in Christ. Is that right? If that is your question then I guess my answer is that I don't decide what to believe on the same sort of cost-benefit-pascals-wager basis that you evidently do.

I said "YOUR PHILOSOPHY" whatever that may be.

That's what I wrote.

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 105 of 122 (606444)
02-25-2011 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by jaywill
02-25-2011 1:24 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
Jaywill writes:

I said "YOUR PHILOSOPHY" whatever that may be.

Well MY PHILOSOPHY doesn't involve believing in things because they make me "happy" (or whatever other Pascals wager type reason might apply). I guess MY PHILOSOPHY involves some sort of evidentially valid cause to accept something as real before believing it to be so.

Radical I know.....

Jaywill writes:

Sure I need to believe in God.

Is your evident need to believe in Christ sufficient basis upon which to describe your belief in Christ as “reasonable”?

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