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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 3 of 299 (593378)
11-26-2010 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Meldinoor
11-26-2010 1:19 AM


I'm curious whether anyone else here who has gone through a deconversion recognizes any of this.
There are probably many different ways of going through this.
For me, it was several decades ago. I never thought there was a conflict between science and religion. I thought it obvious that the Bible was not a science text book, and that the Adam and Eve story was a fable, that the Noah's Ark story was either a fable or about a local flood and farmyard animals.
There was always the problem that prayer seemed to be like talking to a brick wall. But I managed to put that to one side.
What really bothered me were:
  • the miracles; why did the age of miracles seem to end at about the time there were skeptical scientists to check on those them;
  • the resurrection; the description in the Bible is kind of vague, so how can we be so sure of it;
  • the claim that Jesus was son of God, when he mostly described himself as "son of man". It seemed a bit forced.
  • the contradictory genealogies for Jesus;
  • the emphasis on the teachings of Paul, over the teachings of Jesus;
  • Mormonism; nothing seemed more obvious than that it was a made up religion. And if it can have that many followers as a made up religion, then Christianity could just as easily be a made up religion.
In my case, the transition was relatively painless. I was at graduate school, away from my Church friends, so personal ties did not get in the way.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Meldinoor, posted 11-26-2010 1:19 AM Meldinoor has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 48 of 299 (593547)
11-27-2010 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
11-27-2010 5:03 PM


Re: therefore we don't know
Meldinoor writes:
Until you tell me what you mean by "god(s)" I will have to remain non-committal.
RAZD writes:
And this is the agnostic position - that until there is sufficient information on which to base a decision, the logical conclusion is that we don't know.
It is not the agnostic position as you defined that in Message 24. For you defined it as a question on evidence, while Meldinoor is saying that it is a conceptual question, a question of meaning.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2010 5:03 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 60 of 299 (593575)
11-27-2010 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 6:30 PM


Re: therefore we don't know
Meldinoor writes:
I think the technical term for my stance on the issue of gods in general would be Ignosticism. Since the truth value of an undefined concept can not be determined (or even speculated upon), it doesn't really make sense to place oneself on RAZD's scale, even as an agnostic.
That makes a lot of sense to me.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 92 of 299 (593680)
11-28-2010 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Meldinoor
11-28-2010 12:45 PM


Re: Catch 22
Meldinoor writes:
Actually, I'm standing here, looking at the world and claiming that it does not even appear to be designed.
That's my take on it, too. And the more I study it, the clearer it becomes that it is not designed.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 93 of 299 (593684)
11-28-2010 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by GDR
11-28-2010 12:47 PM


Re: More of the same BS
GDR writes:
I think that many of the deconversion experiences happen because people find the Bible contradictory and inaccurate.
I think that understates the problem.
As I see it, the problem is this:
  • Christian theology asserts that the Bible is infallibly true;
  • even those denominations that do not assert infallibility of the Bible still assert that the Bible is the source of their theology;
  • the Bible text does not actually support a lot of core Christian theology.
It takes a really strained way of interpreting the Bible to find it consistent with Christian theology. There's a thread here on Is there Biblical support for the concept of "Original Sin"? that well illustrates part of the problem.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by GDR, posted 11-28-2010 12:47 PM GDR has replied

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 Message 96 by GDR, posted 11-28-2010 5:52 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 101 of 299 (593704)
11-28-2010 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by GDR
11-28-2010 5:52 PM


Re: More of the same BS
GDR writes:
Christianity makes sense of this world in ways that nothing else does.
I was fine with the teachings of Jesus. But too much of Christian theology seemed inconsistent those teachings.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 11-28-2010 5:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 118 of 299 (593798)
11-29-2010 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Apothecus
11-29-2010 1:12 PM


Apothecus writes:
And yet, and yet, it still feels uncomfortable.
That's part of what sustains religion. It is really just group psychology. We evolved as social creatures, and our way of life is dependent on some degree of social cooperation. So, quite naturally, we are influenced by others in the group. Your discomfort is because you have moved in a direction that is inconsistent with the expectations of the group.
Apothecus writes:
Creation never made sense to me back then, but the 'rents just told me there are things which we were not meant to understand.
That "not meant to understand" doesn't work very well with people who have an interest in science and in asking the hard questions.
Apothecus writes:
I'm in the same boat as you are: my family knows nothing of this. Call it cowardly, but believe me when I say that it would crush my wife.
I don't consider that cowardly. It is part of our responsibility, as social beings, that we should not unduly burden others with facts that are mostly personal in nature. That's a situation that calls for thoughtful judgment, and you do seem to have thought it through.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 122 of 299 (593827)
11-29-2010 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by articulett
11-29-2010 6:49 PM


articulett writes:
When the conversation turns religious, sometimes I just say, "I wish there was just some good evidence for the existence of souls"-- but mostly I stay quiet. Rocking the boat is often not worth it.
I have sometimes said, "I prefer to keep my religious views to myself, and I would prefer that others do the same." This turns out to work well with those who come knocking on the door in their evangelism attempts. They usually don't come back.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 143 of 299 (593872)
11-29-2010 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by articulett
11-29-2010 10:21 PM


Re: Pascal's remants
articulett writes:
Sorry for the confusion on pedophiliac priests. I was just pointing out that believing you have someone watching over you, doesn't necessarily make people behave any better.
If I understand him correctly, jar is just saying that we should behave better, and not concern ourselves about whether someone is watching over us.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 209 of 299 (595154)
12-06-2010 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Dawn Bertot
12-06-2010 10:54 PM


Re: ANOTHER powerful testimony from Dawn Bertot?
Dawn Bertot writes:
I took the time to read each one of these articles and they are what I expected, sloppy, inefficient examples of why anyone should abandon faith in God or the Bible
Just post your own deconversion experience here.
What's that? You haven't deconverted yet? Then this is not the thread for you.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-06-2010 10:54 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 235 of 299 (595944)
12-11-2010 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by GDR
12-11-2010 11:12 AM


Kairyu writes:
Is there anybody who has a reaction on my story? I would like to talk a bit more about it.
GDR writes:
All I can say is to think through what it is that you are rejecting.
What he is rejecting, is 2,000 years of made up bullshit, held together by only the glue of tradition and by group psychology.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by GDR, posted 12-11-2010 11:12 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Kairyu, posted 12-11-2010 2:04 PM nwr has replied
 Message 265 by GDR, posted 12-12-2010 7:35 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6435
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 237 of 299 (595955)
12-11-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Kairyu
12-11-2010 2:04 PM


Kairyu writes:
He did not insult me, so there's no need to insult him.
There was no personal insult in my post. I actually have a lot of respect for GDR.
I don't doubt that GDR disagrees with my characterization of religion, but that does not make my post a personal insult.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Kairyu, posted 12-11-2010 2:04 PM Kairyu has replied

Replies to this message:
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