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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 227 of 299 (595782)
12-10-2010 11:19 AM


In my deconversion case, the evolution vs creation debate had nothing to do with it.
I grew up in an ultra conservative christian household. That included, surprise surprise, a lot of gay bashing and condemnation. When I went to college, for the first time in my life I saw people being openly who they are and even more surprising I saw people accepting those people for who they are. In no time, I signed up for philosophy classes and joined the philosophy debate club. This was at the time when gay marriage issue was a really hot topic, so it came up often. I was always sitting with my christian buddies condeming what we saw as the damned. Armed with the bible, we really thought we had it down.
Well, when I took philosophy of ethics, I had a hebrew scholar. He specialized in hebrew translation. What was surprising to me was he was also an atheist. It was this time that I think I started paying more attention to people's criticism of the bible and its inconsistency. I can't remember exactly when, but at some point I decided to sit down and really read the bible and tried to look at it from a "neutral" perspective. I ultimately came to a conclusion.
And people, before you say anything, I spent a long time trying to weasle my way out of this conclusion. Ultimately, though, I couldn't escape the fact that if god's will is to be known through the literal reading of the bible, then god's a genocidal maniac who has no problem with his people killing and raping other societies around them. There was no denying it.
One instance in the bible that stuck out like a sore thumb was when god decided to test abraham's devotion to god by ordering him to kill isaac. My ethics professor was the one that brought this up to me. You see, he had 2 small children at the time. He told me that as a parent he could not contemplate having to be ordered to kill his own kids. Imagine the mental anguish abraham had to go through. Imagine the kind of sadism that brought god to do that to test abraham's loyalty. That's the god that YOU PEOPLE worship.
He allowed me some time to digest that. And then he confronted me about my hate for gay people. Again, the god that YOU PEOPLE worship made people gay for the sole purpose that they would go to hell. What kind of sadistic maniac would that make god?
By the end of that semester, I had already moved to the other side of the debate room.
Remember that at this time I still thought evolution meant a dog giving birth to a cat or some other bullshit.
It was the moral conflict that religion had put me through that made me deconvert. Science had nothing to do with it. And frankly, my satan worshipping, atheist moral values are far superior to any christian I've ever met, including my former self. And I don't consider myself very moral. Nowadays, christian morality disgusts me. After all, it is in religion's nature to have the us-versus-the-evil-ones attitude. Otherwise, who would continue to give them money for fighting evil?
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by xongsmith, posted 12-12-2010 2:02 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 228 of 299 (595783)
12-10-2010 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Dawn Bertot
12-07-2010 11:33 PM


Re: ANOTHER powerful testimony from Dawn Bertot?
Dawn Bertot writes:
Ive been studying considering, and debating these issues for nearly 45 years and never seen, with one exception any isuues that would cause me to think twice about it.
So, I see that you have no problem worshipping a god that is a genocidal and sadistic maniac. Good to know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-07-2010 11:33 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 238 of 299 (595957)
12-11-2010 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Kairyu
12-11-2010 11:51 AM


WSW24 writes:
I still respect Christanity. Some of it's teachings are good.
This statement makes as much sense as saying some nazi teachings are good. Think about it. The nazis were environmentalists as well as health freaks. What we do look at, however, are the evil things that they taught and did and saw how much those evil things outweigh their good things. That's why we call them evil bastards nowadays.
There is one universal theme with christianity ever since it first came into existence, and that is intolerance. I have yet met a christian that is unconditionally tolerant and loving. They always manage to find some subgroup to hate.
2,000 years of made-up bullshit + 2,000 years of intolerance of people different than them = perpetual evil.
I for one am sick of being all polite and politically correct to those who insist on carrying on this evil to the next generations. I have no doubt that if it's no longer fashionable to carry out their inquisitions they'd start another one.
The myth that christianity is about love and tolerance is pure bullshit. Hell fire for those who have never even heard of jesus is anything but love. And their insistence on carrying on their hatred of others is anything but tolerant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Kairyu, posted 12-11-2010 11:51 AM Kairyu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by anglagard, posted 12-12-2010 1:57 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 245 of 299 (596035)
12-12-2010 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by anglagard
12-12-2010 1:57 AM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Anglagard, let's face it. For all you know, I could be a 300 pound pedophile surfing to get my next 12 year old victim.
I'm not saying that all christians are represented by the christians I have met. I'm just saying that if there is a significant number of christians out there who are all tolerant and loving, I should have run into them long ago, considering the fact that almost all people my wife and I know plus everyone on both sides of our families are all christians.
I think I said this before. 2000 years of made up bullshit + 2000 years of intolerance = perpetual evil.
Now, the question that comes to mind is if christianity really is evil then how come it's still around and people don't see it as evil? The answer is very simple. Ever had a small crack in your bone? As it's healing, you constantly feel this ache in your shin. in fact, the small pain is so constant that you begin to feel it's normal to feel hurt a little every time you try to run or jog.
Added by edit.
I think I said this many times before and I'm going to say it again. A few years ago I attended a lecture by a kkk member about their movement. Right off the bat, someone raised his hand and asked that guy "are you a racist?" This kkk person denied left and right that he was racist.
We live in a world where it's no longer fashionable to say I'm intolerant of this group or I hate that group. Even the people who consistently vote against legalizing gay marriage will swear up and down they love gay people and "have gay friends". It's like me voting to sterilize all christians and then swear up and down that I "love all christians".
Of course a christian online or anywhere will not admit he hates certain group of people based on his faith. You gotta talk to them. Their intolerance will come out pretty quickly.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by anglagard, posted 12-12-2010 1:57 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 12-12-2010 1:57 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 247 of 299 (596040)
12-12-2010 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Kairyu
12-12-2010 6:30 AM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
WSW24 writes:
I agree with you. I've met Christians, and was a Christian,who accepted everybody. I also met Christians who were a little bit more conservative, but they were very kind people regardless.
Every gay man will have a similar story to the one I'm about to tell you. It's a story about being invited to some kind of all loving church group. And then when the group is together, the pastor will say "god loves you, but..." and then you can imagine the rest.
I have no doubt that most christians are kind people. And in a way, I have no doubt that they believe they are kind for denying gay people certain rights like adopting children and getting married. They want to save those faggots from hell fire, or something like that.
And of course when they talk to you they will tell you that they are accepting of everybody. Next time you talk to them, don't let them stop there. Trust me, keep letting them talk and it will come out.
Some atheists should try to look more about the positive effects of believing. Even when some parts of the bible mean you don't like it, several other parts hold a good message. I dislike blind bashing. Not everything is black and white, even when anti-religion.
Right, so we should be tolerant of those who are intolerant?
Let me tell you this. I've always admired the nazis for one aspect of their society. They embraced healthiness. In fact, I think we should follow Japan's example and fine everyone who's obese. That said, the nazis did some pretty darn evil things. Am I expected to like them because they got a few good things and a train load of bad things?
It's about time that invisible man in the sky stop interfering with our lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Kairyu, posted 12-12-2010 6:30 AM Kairyu has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 248 of 299 (596041)
12-12-2010 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
12-12-2010 1:57 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
ringo writes:
Maybe you're running in the wrong circles.
Tell that to the poll results. The fact of the matter is every time gay marriage has been put up for a vote it's been struck down by the majority. And polls have consistently shown that it's the christian communities who lobby and drive their members to the polls to vote no.
How would you feel if you have to go ask every person in your state if you could marry your spouse? I certainly wouldn't want anyone to tell me I couldn't marry my wife. I love her to death. If christians can go out and vote by the masses to take people's rights away, then please spare us the "we are all tolerant" bullshit. At least admit it like real honorable people.
Added by edit.
My state recently passed civil union. While I don't agree with separate but equal because I think it's bullshit, at least it's something. We still got a long way to go. Anyway, all the same conservatives and christians who just last year said they didn't want to redefine marriage but were ok with civil union are now screaming bloody murder.
Isn't it because they only said they were ok with civil union but didn't want to redefine marriage to be politically correct? And now that civil union actually passed they are now "wait a minute, we really meant we don't want any right for gay people. We were just saying the politically correct thing last year."
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 12-12-2010 1:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 12-12-2010 2:05 PM Taz has replied
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 12-12-2010 3:01 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 250 of 299 (596043)
12-12-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
12-12-2010 2:05 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
jar writes:
I'm sorry but once again Taz, who has claimed that all of any group are tolerant?
Ok, I'll give you that, that there is no group of people with all its members all tolerant.
That said, if christianity really is about love and tolerance, there'd be more christians who honest to god love and tolerate than the numbers we are seeing today. Christians have had 2000 years to bring their numbers up.
If there really are more christians who are tolerant and loving, then there ought to be more christian communities campaigning against scam artists like peter popoff and benny hinn. Instead, we have seen absolutely zip from the christian communities. Turns out that pretty much everyone who's trying expose these frauds are atheists.
Fun fact, James Randi is a gay atheist.
And if there really are more christians who are all tolerant and loving, the poll results in those referandums regarding gay marriage and gay adoption should have had completely different results. Instead, we still have to rely on the courts to make it legal. This is a disgrace to any group of proclaims itself to be based on love and tolerance.
Added by edit.
Oh, and by the way, I can't remember the last time I saw a group who's campaigning for marriage equality that's christian.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 12-12-2010 2:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 12-12-2010 2:13 PM Taz has replied
 Message 264 by ICdesign, posted 12-12-2010 6:59 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 252 of 299 (596046)
12-12-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
12-12-2010 2:13 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Hang on. You're not being fair.
Do you dispute the fact that gay rights issues in referandums have been consistently struck down by the christian population at large? Are you saying that when it comes to the polling places there's some kind of mind control machine that makes your all tolerant and loving christians to vote against their conscience?
I'm sorry, jar. I respect you as a man. That said, you should know by now that I point things out as is. I don't care much for political correctness. We can't win our fight for human rights if we continue to sugar coat reality.
Added by edit.
A Conservative Christian Case for Civil Same-Sex Marriage
There's an article by a conservative christian for gay marriage. Even he admits that most of his breathrens are against gay rights.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 12-12-2010 2:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 12-12-2010 2:22 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 255 of 299 (596052)
12-12-2010 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
12-12-2010 3:01 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Another example of having to go the courts route to legalize gay marriage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 12-12-2010 3:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 12-12-2010 3:47 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 257 of 299 (596054)
12-12-2010 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
12-12-2010 3:47 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
ringo writes:
It always has to go the courts route eventually. I don't see how that reflects on the loving attitude of Christians.
Reflects badly on the loving attitude of christians because if they didn't try so hard to stop gay marriage then there wouldn't be a need for the courts to decide. It would simply pass via popular vote.
Those attitudes are a product of society in general. Christians may have a better sound bites ("God hates fags!" beats "Ick!") but I don't think their attitudes are really any different from the rest of society.
And yet reality contradicts your claim. Right now in the US, there are no organizations that spend more money to fight against legalizing gay marriage than religious groups. And when it comes to voting time, gay marriage has always been struck down by the christian majority.
Edit.
Haha, you remind me of the battered wife that keeps trying to tell herself her abusive husband really loves her even though she's got bruises all over her body.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 12-12-2010 3:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 12-12-2010 4:20 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 260 of 299 (596058)
12-12-2010 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Kairyu
12-12-2010 4:24 PM


Re: gay rights? off-topic.
Actually, this is on topic. Gay rights is one example out of many that turned me off on christianity. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
The complaint is we are simply tired of the bullshit that comes with christianity and other religions. And right now, it just happens that gay rights is on the forefront of what we are talking about. In the previous generation, it would have been black people's rights. And the generation before that, it was slavery.
And don't anyone pretend like they don't know about the sorry of an excuse that by enslaving black people from Africa we were in fact helping them by introducing them to christ and making them good servants so they'd be good servants in heaven.
If christianity was so righteous, loving, and tolerant, every christian should have been on the street to help free the slaves. This just proves that christians are no more moral than the society that they live in. And if this is the case, then why the hell do we even need christianity to be around to keep giving people excuses to be intolerant?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Kairyu, posted 12-12-2010 4:24 PM Kairyu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by frako, posted 12-12-2010 5:10 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 262 by AdminPD, posted 12-12-2010 6:05 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 266 of 299 (596084)
12-12-2010 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by ICdesign
12-12-2010 6:59 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
ICDESIGN writes:
I assume
the reason this issue is so close to your heart is possibly because you are gay or someone close to you is gay.
You assume wrong. I am neither gay nor have I a close person who is. Sure, I have plenty of gay friends, but they are as close to me as my straight friends.
That's right, this satan worshipping atheist actually cares about what goes on out there besides what affects me personally.
I would just like to say that any Christian who hates another person because of their lifestyle is wrong and walking in sin.
It's not a lifestyle. Some gay people are doctors, some are engineers, some are lawyers, some are construction workers, some are homeless, etc.
The bible teaches us to hate sin but to love the person committing the sin.
Then wouldn't you say that voting by the masses to take away rights of gay people is hating the sin but loving the person?
This hate the sin but love the person is just a rationalization to hate.
Honestly, I hate christianity, but I love christians. So, I'm going to vote to ban christians from breeding. Since christian kids are at the disadvantage of growing up with a delusion, I will help them out by preventing their existence. Honestly, I love christians. I just hate christianity.
Understand why "hate the sin but love the sinner" is bullshit now?
Added by edit.
By the way, the "hate the sin but love the sinner" is another thing that turns me off about religion. It basically justifies doing the worst things in the world in the name of purging the sin. I'm sure those christians who burned those witches to death were really saving their souls because they hated the sin of witchcraft but loved the sinners.
If you're going to hate, at least be man enough to admit it. Don't try to beat around the bush.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ICdesign, posted 12-12-2010 6:59 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ICdesign, posted 12-12-2010 10:50 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 270 of 299 (596095)
12-13-2010 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by ICdesign
12-12-2010 10:50 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Haha, thanks for demonstrating my point. Actually, you did better than I thought you would.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by ICdesign, posted 12-12-2010 10:50 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
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