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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 1 of 299 (593315)
11-26-2010 1:19 AM


Dear fellow EvC Forum members,
After a hiatus of a couple of months I've decided to pop back in and see what's new at EvC. And aside from a few new technical features (keep up the good work Percy) you guys seem to be pretty much where I left you, same old regular posters, same old discussions.
This contrasts rather sharply with my own personal development over the past few months. During this time I've reevaluated many of the personal beliefs that I've espoused on this forum, most notably my religious beliefs. I now consider myself something of an agnostic, though I don't make a meaningful distinction between agnosticism and atheism, and labels aren't important anyway.
It's hard to point to a single reason for why I lost my faith. The Creation-Evolution debate certainly had nothing to do with it, as I never saw any conflict between a belief in a higher power and an acceptance of the natural processes that produced mankind. Rather, I think I just became less averse to being critical of myself and my religion. At some point the scales just fell from my eyes and I realized that I had no real reason to maintain my belief in God. There was only blind faith, and what good is faith when it could just as well be used to form the basis for any quack religion?
For a while I existed in a state of limbo, not really sure what I believed, and fearful of the implications of either "belief". I am unfortunately predisposed to depression, and this didn't help. My existential crisis (for lack of a better word) caused more than a few sleepless nights.
Only recently have I begun to feel more secure in my non-belief. I think my non-belief is more justified and subjectable to rational critique than my Christian faith ever was. Despite this, I still feel a tinge of cognitive dissonance whenever I'm around my very religious family. For some reason that I can't quite put a finger on, God almost feels more real to me when I'm surrounded by Christians. I'm ashamed to admit that the paranoid idea that the Devil might be deluding me still occurs to me.
I'm curious whether anyone else here who has gone through a deconversion recognizes any of this. Is it usually this difficult? How long did it take you to go from a fairly deep religious conviction to non-belief in God?
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by frako, posted 11-26-2010 5:32 AM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 11-26-2010 5:34 PM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 6 by iano, posted 11-26-2010 8:41 PM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 11-26-2010 8:41 PM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2010 10:09 PM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 12 by anglagard, posted 11-27-2010 12:57 AM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 17 by cavediver, posted 11-27-2010 4:35 AM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-27-2010 10:39 AM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 33 by jar, posted 11-27-2010 4:21 PM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 100 by dwise1, posted 11-28-2010 7:53 PM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 115 by Apothecus, posted 11-29-2010 1:12 PM Meldinoor has replied
 Message 182 by lyx2no, posted 12-05-2010 10:08 AM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 263 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2010 6:37 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 4 of 299 (593379)
11-26-2010 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by frako
11-26-2010 5:32 AM


Thank you frako.
frako writes:
So preatty soon the only thing god did in my mind was he snapped his fingers made the big bang go bang and then went to sleep for 15 billion years and is still sleaping now. Well soon i realised that was a silly idea. So that last place where god should go got removed and i became a full atheist.
So you went from theism to atheism via deism? Similarly, I came to realize that history could easily have unfolded as it has without divine intervention. God was essentially relegated to acting as a first cause, but of course I still believed that he intervened in the lives of his followers, even if these "interventions" were indistinguishable from non-divine phenomena.
frako writes:
Well soon i realised that was a silly idea. So that last place where god should go got removed and i became a full atheist.
For a lifelong Christian, just realizing that a belief is silly doesn't necessarily make it go away. I suffer "withdrawal symptoms" because, even though I can't justify rationally a belief in God, I haven't convinced my more irrational side that God isn't there. I still sometimes catch myself praying before I go to work, bed, or before I do just about anything. It's a habit that will take some time to break.
frako writes:
I had it easy my mother was an atheist or more of an agnostic, and my father never went to church, though he sometime payed for a mass or 2 for his father my late grandfather. So i was not fed all the bullshit by force and it was easier for me to shake it loose.
You were lucky. My immediate family live across the Atlantic from me, and I'm not too concerned about how they'll react. But my grandparents are providing me room and board, and they are very devout. My grandmother is frail and the only reason why I have not made known my loss of faith. I worry that the revelation would be too hard on her.
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by frako, posted 11-26-2010 5:32 AM frako has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 5 of 299 (593385)
11-26-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
11-26-2010 5:34 PM


nwr writes:
There was always the problem that prayer seemed to be like talking to a brick wall. But I managed to put that to one side.
This was never a problem for me. Most of my prayers were for rather small things that could easily be attained without divine intervention. A prayer for a "good day at work" was almost always "answered", and an occasional exception didn't bother me.
nwr writes:
In my case, the transition was relatively painless. I was at graduate school, away from my Church friends, so personal ties did not get in the way.
Personal ties do have a big impact. When I'm around Christians, especially my devout relatives, religious belief feels more "right" (can't quite put a finger on why) and I feel increased guilt for the doubts that I have. Similarly, when I was a Christian, I always felt more devout when I had taken part in Christian activities, like church. It bothers me because I strive to be rational about my beliefs, and not to be a "pack animal" that goes with the flow that I just happened to have been born into.
Sooner or later I'm just going to have to "come out" as a non-believer, but I haven't yet decided how I'm going to break it to my family.
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 11-26-2010 5:34 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 8 of 299 (593412)
11-26-2010 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
11-26-2010 8:41 PM


Hi iano,
iano writes:
Would you say the the god you believed in would applaud your decision (the God I believe in would, I think).
That's actually a very good question that I have asked myself on occasion. I don't think my motives for leaving the faith were by any means contrary to what the Bible teaches. All I did was apply reason to determine whether my beliefs were justifiable or not. Had I done the same in a conversion to Christianity, no Christian would have suggested I was doing it "for the wrong reasons".
I prayed often during this process, asking God for guidance, discernment, and wisdom. I asked God to make the truth evident to me. I really didn't want to make a rash decision. Of course, agnosticism is not so much a decision as it is, well, indecision. The only choice I made was to be honest with myself about my lack of faith. I can't "choose" to believe anything without a reason. I have to be convinced first.
I imagine that if God is a good and loving god, He would be patient with my doubts and guide me back to the faith. That's what I hope at any rate, assuming that He really is there.
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 11-26-2010 8:41 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by iano, posted 11-27-2010 6:29 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 13 of 299 (593426)
11-27-2010 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
11-26-2010 8:41 PM


Re: On the other hand ...
Hi RAZD,
RAZD writes:
For me, faith is a personal journey, rather than a follow-the-leader behavior, and there are many paths to the top of the mountain.
As a Christian I was pretty independent, and didn't subscribe to any particular denomination or flavor of Christianity. I accepted the basic beliefs common to all evangelical lutherans, while being generally non-committal on most disputed doctrine. I saw faith as a journey of discovery and learning, a journey toward godliness and an improved understanding of God. Surprisingly, I don't consider my loss of faith to be an interruption of that pattern, but a continuation in a new direction (even if my concept of a personal God has changed).
RAZD writes:
Curiously, I've gone the other way, from strong atheist to agnostic deist. There are several reasons, but the largest was that I could no longer support the atheist position. The logic was too flawed, and the only "evidence" was the apparent absence of evidence for god/s, arguments that begged the question, and other logical fallacies. More and more it seemed that the strong atheist position was just as flawed and self-referential as the strong theist position, and just as willing to ignore the shortcomings. Both strong theists and strong atheists strike me as being smug in their self-delusions.
I have a friend who tells me that he "knows" that no gods exist. I consider that to be a very peculiar stance to take, especially since no single coherent definition for the concept of a "god" (small g) exists. While I can speculate on the probabilities of specific gods existing (Ra, Vishnu, Osiris, Yahweh), it's impossible to make any truth claims at all about an undefined concept. I'm an atheist only in the sense that I'm "not a theist", i.e. I don't claim the existence of any god. But I'm skeptical enough to consider any suggestions you'd care to put forth about gods.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 11-26-2010 8:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2010 1:12 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 14 of 299 (593431)
11-27-2010 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
11-26-2010 10:09 PM


Re: From Faith To Disbelief
Buzsaw writes:
Hi Meldinoor. It's great to have you back. I hope you'll remain active.
Thank you, Buz. I look forward to being back on the field of debate, crushing your arguments into a fine dust, and hopefully learning something in the process (even if that just ends up being patience)
Buzsaw writes:
I'm wandering what sort of faith and doctrine you originally had?
I would always just answer "Christian" when asked that question, though I was brought up as an evangelical Christian, alternately attending a Pentecostal church and a Mission Covenant Church (second largest denomination in Sweden, where I'm from). The most important part of my faith was a belief in atonement through Jesus Christ.
Buzsaw writes:
Was there a specified time of conversion when you could say from that point you had become a Christian?
I was raised a Christian. As for when I accepted Christ, I'm sure I must have done it the first time when I was just a little kid. I would later reaffirm my acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour on several occasions, usually in the context of attending some Christian revival thing, or a Christian youth camp. I was baptized in 2005, though that was more ceremonial and not as spiritually significant as my acceptance of Christ.
Buzsaw writes:
What was the criteria for your conversion to Christianity in the first place?
To accept Jesus as the Lord of my life and accept his gift of salvation.
Buzsaw writes:
Many of these men received Jesus as Lord (I say Lord/master) and Savior, committing their lives and souls to him, being anxious no doubt, about their destiny.
Do you really consider fear and anxiety to be legitimate reasons for a belief in God? It worked for me when I was 10 and had constant, terrible nightmares about hell and damnation. It didn't make me particularly comfortable or trusting of God, but it sure kept me praying. Now, just over a decade later, I can see what a poor foundation the fear of hell provides for one's faith. It makes me sad to see my youngest brother with same fears that I had, frightened at the mere mention of hell. Hell is one of the things I'm not going to miss about Christianity.
Buzsaw writes:
I would suggest three things which evangelical Christians needed in order to remain strong in the faith and to grow spiritually. First, read a chapter or more of the Bible daily. Second pray to the Father in the name of Jesus daily in a pattern somewhat like the Lord's Prayer as a model, but pray long enough to offer praise to God, to thank God for all blessings which come from him ultimately and to make request for all of their needs and concerns for that day. Thirdly, attend some assembly of believers at least once a week.
You may be right. I haven't really read the Bible (as opposed to simply looking stuff up) for a couple of years now, though I used to be an avid reader. I did pray a lot though, right up until my recent deconversion. And I rarely take the time to go to church what with college and work taking up most of my time. Perhaps losing these habits contributed to my loss of faith. It's possible.
Buzsaw writes:
Perhaps your faith was shallow and had never reached a significant amount of depth. Jesus spoke of the different soils which the sown seed fell on, some on rocky, some dry, some by the wayside, etc and some on the good soil where it took root. Did you ever have the assurance that your faith had taken root? Did your religion even practice and teach the need for a conversion experience?
My faith ebbed and flowed, as I suspect most peoples' faith does. Sometimes I felt like I was walking with Jesus, other times I had doubts. I don't recall either of my churches ever placing a lot of emphasis on conversion. The churches I attended were really kinda luke-warm and not particularly charismatic, but there were youth leaders who were really on fire for Christ. I moved to the U.S. when I was 18 (three years ago), and since then I have sporadically attended a few churches in town, not really feeling a connection with any of them.
Buzsaw writes:
I will have you on my prayer list as you go your way, trusting in God to, by his Holy Spirit, to nudge you in the way you should go. Often God works in interesting and unusual ways when we ask him. Perhaps he will bring about something unique for your ultimate good, in a manner so that you will know it came from the living God, Jehovah.
I appreciate your prayers. If God exists and he does answer prayers, then hopefully He'll respond and convince me of His presence. If He doesn't, well, I'll still appreciate your trying.
Respectully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2010 10:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 15 of 299 (593433)
11-27-2010 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by articulett
11-27-2010 12:02 AM


Hi articulett,
Thanks for sharing your story.
articulett writes:
I actually lost my faith in souls, first.
That's interesting, because that was one of the first philosophical problems I had with Christianity. Souls didn't seem to fulfill any real function since the brain is known to provide memory, personality, decision-making, etc. If the soul was none of these, then what was it? And why should one's soul be held eternally accountable for the decisions made by a short-lived, three-pound lump of flesh?
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
ABE:
Thanks for the links in your second post. I'll check them out, though I already saw the Dembski-Hitchens debate. I enjoyed the debate, though Hitchens is (understandably) not in his prime. But Dembski was one of the least impressive apologists I've ever listened to (he mostly ignored his opponent and simply read from his prepared arguments), so Hitchens still came across as the voice of reason.
Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by articulett, posted 11-27-2010 12:02 AM articulett has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 16 of 299 (593434)
11-27-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by anglagard
11-27-2010 12:57 AM


Re: Stupid Whores for Lucifer
anglagard writes:
I still believe in God, it just lives in the critical point between Deism, Pantheism, Philosophical Taoism, and Matayama Buddhism. More later if interested
How did you go from Christianity to what seems like a mix of eastern mysticism? Feel free to elaborate if you want to.
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by anglagard, posted 11-27-2010 12:57 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 37 of 299 (593529)
11-27-2010 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
11-27-2010 10:39 AM


Re: Why be hasty at deconversion?
Phat writes:
Why is it necessary to break that habit? Even if prayer were only meditation with an idealized higher self, it would serve some useful function.But if you have to let go, by all means dont let me get in your way
I do kind of like prayer. It allows me to reflect on my goals and whatever hurdles I have to clear in the near future. It's also nice to express gratitude for the good things in my life, and to reflect on past mistakes and seek self-improvement. But if I can do all this without consciously deluding myself, it would be ideal.
Phat writes:
I suppose that it wouldnt hurt to bhe an atheist, but it makes me feel just a wee bit uncomfortable that someone who knows what they are doing isnt in charge.
Who cares if a belief makes you uncomfortable? I feel uncomfortable whenever I think of starving, disease-ridden Ethiopians, but I'm not going to start imagining that suffering isn't real just because it would make me feel better. I can no longer believe in something just because I really want to, I must be able to justify it.
Phat writes:
I still dont understand why you have to be a non believer?
Because I don't believe? It's much easier to disbelieve in an arbitrary notion than to believe it, because belief requires justification. I don't need evidence that God doesn't exist to justify not believing in Him. The dearth of evidence for His existence is enough.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-27-2010 10:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 38 of 299 (593530)
11-27-2010 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
11-27-2010 1:12 PM


My first reaction was to say 5, or 6, but that would only be my stance regarding the biblical God, whose existence is much easier to discredit than the rather vague notion of "a god". Until there is a clear and unambiguous definition of the term "god", it doesn't really make sense to be anywhere on the scale.
Until you tell me what you mean by "god(s)" I will have to remain non-committal.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2010 1:12 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2010 5:03 PM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 203 by onifre, posted 12-06-2010 7:17 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 40 of 299 (593533)
11-27-2010 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 3:02 PM


Re: On the other hand ...
It might be interesting to see you present what you consider your most convincing evidence in a Great Debate. So far I'm as unconvinced by your claims of prophecy and ancient history as everyone else on this forum.
The Great Debate format would allow you to present your arguments without the clutter of twenty people picking them apart at the same time. Also, there would finally be somewhere where your "evidence" is neatly summarized, allowing easy reference whenever you want to point someone toward your "previously mentioned evidence".
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2010 3:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2010 5:14 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 45 of 299 (593542)
11-27-2010 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 5:14 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Alright Buz,
I will be somewhat short of time what with school and work as well, especially with my finals coming up in couple of weeks. But I would be happy to debate you. Since you're the one presenting the arguments, I suggest you propose the Great Debate topic. I know you probably have hundreds of arguments for the existence of God, but let's start off with just a few of your strongest arguments so that things don't get too cluttered.
Looking forward to an interesting debate,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2010 5:14 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2010 6:25 PM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 52 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 6:32 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 51 of 299 (593551)
11-27-2010 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by nwr
11-27-2010 6:24 PM


Re: therefore we don't know
I think the technical term for my stance on the issue of gods in general would be Ignosticism. Since the truth value of an undefined concept can not be determined (or even speculated upon), it doesn't really make sense to place oneself on RAZD's scale, even as an agnostic.
My stance on gods is exactly the same as my stance on GurblFnagl, another undefined term. I consider myself neither a believer, disbeliever, or agnostic on the existence of GurblFnagl, because the question of his/her/its existence is moot.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by nwr, posted 11-27-2010 6:24 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by nwr, posted 11-27-2010 8:04 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 53 of 299 (593553)
11-27-2010 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by iano
11-27-2010 6:29 PM


iano writes:
Another question for you then. Can I assume that the evidence you had during belief is the same evidence that you have now - and that you've come to critique that evidence in a different way.
Quite so. I think my belief in God was sustained mostly by my will to believe in God. This and a handful of religious experiences that I've had, and that I still can't fully explain, formed the basis for my faith. It helped to be immersed in Christian culture and to be part of a very religious extended family. With so many believers, it was easier to believe that they were onto something.
iano writes:
I don't think a God whose mode of salvation centres around convincing the world of sin, righteousness and judgement would have much problem with that
I wouldn't either. But on the other hand, He did kind of overreact after a couple of nave naked people in a garden decided to taste a piece of fruit.
iano writes:
Whether he would finally or not I'm not sure. But a good God would surely try.
I would think so. So if I don't see God presenting some effort to restore my faith, I will either assume that He isn't there, or that He isn't good. Either way, not much point in worshiping Him.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by iano, posted 11-27-2010 6:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 11-27-2010 7:03 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 56 of 299 (593563)
11-27-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 6:32 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Hello ICDESIGN,
ICDESIGN writes:
Sorry to here of your turbulent times and what appears to be ship-wrecked faith.
Thank you for your concern. I would point out that there's no need to feel sorry about it, but from your point of view I guess that puts me in a pretty sad position. So thanks.
Buzsaw writes:
I was looking over comments Buzsaw made and I agree with what he has to say. I think a Great Debate with him would be an excellent idea.
I agree. A great debate with Buzsaw will allow him to present his arguments in one place, rather than have them spread out throughout the forums. Too often he refers back to some evidence, but it's often difficult to find it, or to see if there really was any in the first place.
From what I've seen of his arguments in the past, I have yet to find any of them particularly convincing. Obviously not because of bias, since I agreed with him on most of what he said about God. I'm not going to draw any conclusions until I see what he presents, but I don't have high expectations. Hopefully I'll be surprised.
ICDESIGN writes:
Prophecy is one of the strongest reasons to put your faith in the bible and thus the God of the bible. Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies just himself.
Or so the Bible says. Other religions claim fulfilled prophecy as well.
Curiously, when certain scientific theories make hundreds of predictions and they all come true, this doesn't seem to influence your acceptance of them. Do you have double standards?
ICDESIGN writes:
In my opinion one of the major reasons you have struggled with your belief in God is because you compromise the truth of what God has revealed through his word with "worldly" wisdom. God's ways are not our ways and our wisdom is foolishness to God.
It's possible. If I never entertained any independent thought, and avoided any discussion contrary to my beliefs, I would probably still have my faith. But what would that faith be worth? A Mormon, Muslim, or Hindu could equally refuse to evaluate their faiths on the basis of facts and evidence, and you would consider them closed-minded. Even an atheist who refused to consider any alternatives would be considered closed-minded, and rightfully so. You never know how strong or how valuable your faith is, until it is tested. And if it fails the test of reality, then what was it worth in the first place?
ICDESIGN writes:
...its an ongoing lesson about learning to trust God no matter what Satan or the world says.
On that same token, how would I know that the Muslim God, Allah, is not the One True God? Or Vishnu? Osiris? All other beliefs could be corruptions authored by Satan (or Iblis). How do you know for sure? Obviously, at some point we have to rely on some kind of evidence, or arguments, and ultimately our own brains, to determine which world view is more likely to be correct. We have to decide to believe in God before we can trust Him. And I did trust Him. For many years I was the only outspoken Christian among my peers, and I was never afraid to share my beliefs. For many years I was also an ID proponent, but as I said earlier, my faith was not really impacted by my being corrected on that front.
ICDESIGN writes:
I have been walking with God since 1983 and He has clearly revealed himself to me over and over and over again
Why doesn't He clearly reveal himself to me, even after many a prayer for Him to do so? Even when I felt his presence during the times when my faith was at its strongest, He never clearly and unambiguously proved His existence to me. If He can present Himself to you, then why can't He do so for unbelievers and those who are struggling with their faith?
ICDESIGN writes:
He does that for two reasons. One, to grow our faith and two, to make sure we knew it was Him and not luck or coincidence. I have seen this happen more times than I can count.
I have seen it too. But always in ways that were indistinguishable from luck, or chance. I have never gotten a check signed "God".
ICDESIGN writes:
I will keep you in my prayers
Thank you.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 6:32 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 8:09 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
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