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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
ringo
Member
Posts: 17646
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 256 of 299 (596053)
12-12-2010 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Taz
12-12-2010 3:19 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Taz writes:

Another example of having to go the courts route to legalize gay marriage.


It always has to go the courts route eventually. I don't see how that reflects on the loving attitude of Christians.

Concerning the topic, I doubt that Christian attitudes toward gay marriage have much to do with deconverting. Those attitudes are a product of society in general. Christians may have a better sound bites ("God hates fags!" beats "Ick!") but I don't think their attitudes are really any different from the rest of society.


"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Taz, posted 12-12-2010 3:19 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Taz, posted 12-12-2010 3:58 PM ringo has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1628 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 257 of 299 (596054)
12-12-2010 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
12-12-2010 3:47 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
ringo writes:

It always has to go the courts route eventually. I don't see how that reflects on the loving attitude of Christians.


Reflects badly on the loving attitude of christians because if they didn't try so hard to stop gay marriage then there wouldn't be a need for the courts to decide. It would simply pass via popular vote.

Those attitudes are a product of society in general. Christians may have a better sound bites ("God hates fags!" beats "Ick!") but I don't think their attitudes are really any different from the rest of society.

And yet reality contradicts your claim. Right now in the US, there are no organizations that spend more money to fight against legalizing gay marriage than religious groups. And when it comes to voting time, gay marriage has always been struck down by the christian majority.

Edit.

Haha, you remind me of the battered wife that keeps trying to tell herself her abusive husband really loves her even though she's got bruises all over her body.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 12-12-2010 3:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17646
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 258 of 299 (596056)
12-12-2010 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Taz
12-12-2010 3:58 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Taz writes:

It would simply pass via popular vote.


You're being parochial. We don't do things by popular vote in Canada. Popular vote is flighty and often has little to do with people's real attitudes.

Taz writes:

Right now in the US, there are no organizations that spend more money to fight against legalizing gay marriage than religious groups.


Which has little to do with their real attitudes. They're displaying a defensive attitude, not necessarily an intolerant one. The same people fight against evolution and gun control. It's an attempt to appear "different from the world", not an indication that they really are.

But what does any of that have to do with deconversion?


"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Taz, posted 12-12-2010 3:58 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 259 of 299 (596057)
12-12-2010 4:24 PM


gay rights? off-topic.
I might note you guys are being off topic.. make a topic about gay tolerance, don't do it here in detail.Please.

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1628 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 260 of 299 (596058)
12-12-2010 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Kairyu
12-12-2010 4:24 PM


Re: gay rights? off-topic.
Actually, this is on topic. Gay rights is one example out of many that turned me off on christianity. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

The complaint is we are simply tired of the bullshit that comes with christianity and other religions. And right now, it just happens that gay rights is on the forefront of what we are talking about. In the previous generation, it would have been black people's rights. And the generation before that, it was slavery.

And don't anyone pretend like they don't know about the sorry of an excuse that by enslaving black people from Africa we were in fact helping them by introducing them to christ and making them good servants so they'd be good servants in heaven.

If christianity was so righteous, loving, and tolerant, every christian should have been on the street to help free the slaves. This just proves that christians are no more moral than the society that they live in. And if this is the case, then why the hell do we even need christianity to be around to keep giving people excuses to be intolerant?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2823
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 261 of 299 (596062)
12-12-2010 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Taz
12-12-2010 4:35 PM


Re: gay rights? off-topic.
Actually, this is on topic. Gay rights is one example out of many that turned me off on christianity. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

I personally i do not know why religion tries to put its nose in to every thing that does not concern it.

Bing gay is an offense to god. Well ok let him be offended my guess is Allah is offended because you eat pork you do not see many Muslims protests that demand you to stop eating pork. If we followed every religions guidelines things would get rather complicated, but Christians usually do not think that way they think that only their guidelines should be followed because the bible says so and the Quoran, the teachings of Buddha and all the other 1000 religions are inferior to them.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 262 of 299 (596066)
12-12-2010 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Taz
12-12-2010 4:35 PM


Topic Please
The topic is about deconversion experiences, not general venting against Christianity or religion.

Note Admins Message 206.

This thread is not about evolution. It is about deconversion experiences. If someone cites pedophile priests as a deconversion reason, that does not change the topic to pedophile priests. In the same way, if someone cites evolution as a deconversion reason, that does not change the topic to evolution.

The topic in this thread is not evolution. It is deconversion experiences.

The same goes for homosexuality.

Please stick to the topic or start your own thread.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

Thank you
AdminPD Purple


This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 263 of 299 (596067)
12-12-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Meldinoor
11-26-2010 1:19 AM


My story
I'm curious whether anyone else here who has gone through a deconversion recognizes any of this. Is it usually this difficult? How long did it take you to go from a fairly deep religious conviction to non-belief in God?

I posted this originally at Message 8 in Share your history of belief/disbelief, but it seems to address many of the key points you yourself raised in your own ongoing story.


My parents were Church Of England, mildly practicing (more my mother than my father). My grandparents were strongly practicing C of E (as strong as that gets anyway - that is they went to church every week and all that).

However - my father works in oil and his job took him around a lot of places including the Middle East, the Caribbean and now, Louisiana. So there were lots of ideas flying around when I was a kid. My first school was a 'Gospel School' (I was the only white boy in the whole school ), and my leaving present was the Good News Bible with a picture of the island the school was on.

So lots of religion. I simply took it for granted that God was up there and was looking over me and out for me. I often had dialogue with him.

My first clash came when that common childhood fascination with dinosaurs and my insatiable appetite for facts came into confrontation with the first page of the aforementioned Good News Bible. When I brought it up with my parents they explained the basic Theistic Evolutionist position. It took a few months, but I managed to massage the cognitive dissonance away and so it remained until I was about 11 or 12 years old.

It was at this point that I first learned that there were other forms of Christianity, lots of them, and I was told outright that I was 'Church of England'. It seemed a little odd to be told what I believed in this way, and it seemed odd that there could be so much disagreement about things.

So I picked up the Good News Bible again and started reading. I realized that the book was very very boring. I didn't care who begat who! Why should I? I put the book down and shelved my concerns under 'Things other people have figured out'.

Over time, doubts still continued to gnaw at me. Why was I so sure my beliefs were the right ones, what if someone else had it right? Every time I felt these things I was crippled with guilt. I felt myself either being told off by the Holy Father or simply that feeling you get when your mother says, "I'm not angry, just dissapointed.", the feeling was terrible.

So I started comparing other people's beliefs. My Grandmother, though a dedicate Christian had a veritable library of strange and esoteric Eastern religious concepts with strange New Age stuff. So I read about Lobsang Rampa, and everything ever written by Betty Shine. There was more besides - and these ideas resonated with me so much more than the Christian belief did.

At first I tried to merge them together so that I need not throw anything out, but that became more and more difficult.

Eventually, I realized that I wasn't sure what religion I was, but it definitely wasn't Christian and it was oriented more towards the East. Then my parents started talking about a Confirmation ceremony and I realized that I didn't understand what 'vow' it was that I was supposed to be 'renewing' and that I didn't feel comfortable making a promise that I didn't really understand.

I was also at this time reading other books in my Grandmother's awesome library, including books on British Law. One such book said that a child has autonomy to choose their religion when they reach the age of 16. This I did on my 16th birthday, advising my parents that I no longer wished to identify as a Christian - I went on to say that I didn't wish to receive gifts at Christmas etc, but they told me that they would be giving them to me anyway.

I wandered about the map as far as definitive alternatives. I played with some form of Buddhism or another, including a long period in Zen, a long period of New Age Healing/spiritualism nonsense, and then a longer period self identifying as a 'sannyasin' via the cult leader Osho.

When I was about 18, a few friends of mine were talking about how they were having combat on the Astral plains and how they were engaged in a spiritual war with various people and melding that with some kind of neo-pagan stuff. It seemed so transparently silly to me, but I realized that my own beliefs were also pretty silly when I held them up to the very same scrutiny. So I went through a confused period once more.

Then I had a divine revelation which lead to me throw away all of the previous beliefs and follow a supernatural variety of pantheism, which was gradually stripped down to straight atheistic pantheism with a brief peculiar blip of believing in Islam (actually it wasn't really Islam, it was a fake version of Islam).

I self identified as pantheist for a few years, but that seemed to lead to confusion, and then Dawkins started the Out Campaign and I realized that the most unambiguous description for my position with regards to religion was 'atheist'. Still people get confused - I've had friends say disparaging things to me/about me, family members are mostly supportive but with some clear signals of distaste. I generally point out that as a positive position I am a humanist - the atheism is just an incidental fact about me.


I'm ashamed to admit that the paranoid idea that the Devil might be deluding me still occurs to me.

Don't be - it's actually a rational paranoia. You are going through a period of asking some pretty deep and important questions about your position in the world, your status in time and more besides. It would be a sign of an irrational mind if you didn't also question your questioning.

Good luck, and keep grounded. If there is a Devil as devious as the one you occasionally fear - you're doomed: keep reminding yourself that the self-same devil might have been the one deluding you into believing Yahweh and you'll soon realize its just a monster under the bed.

Sure, on some rare occasions, the monster is real - but to quote Tony Soprano 'whaddya gonna do. eh?'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Meldinoor, posted 11-26-2010 1:19 AM Meldinoor has not yet responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 264 of 299 (596068)
12-12-2010 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Taz
12-12-2010 2:11 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Hi Taz. I have noticed a lot of your comments have to do with Christians not tolerating the gay lifestyle. I assume
the reason this issue is so close to your heart is possibly because you are gay or someone close to you is gay.

I would just like to say that any Christian who hates another person because of their lifestyle is wrong and walking in sin. I myself fall way short on many occasions having harsh feelings towards others because I disagree with them on issues that are important to me. When I do this I am wrong and walking in sin.

Taz writes:

That said, if christianity really is about love and tolerance

The bible teaches us to hate sin but to love the person committing the sin. When you see these wacko's holding up their signs saying hateful comments with their gay-bashing and mean comments against whatever the issue is, you can rest assured they are out of God's will and do not represent what the bible is teaching on how to confront sin.

Jesus himself is our model of behavior. He loved people right where they were at. Its important to note however that he never tolerated the sin. He loved the sinner yes. But you never see Jesus telling a person their sin was OK and to keep on keeping on. He said "Go and sin no more".

there ought to be more christian communities campaigning against scam artists like peter popoff and benny hinn

These guys and the circus acts like them are not of God and will some day answer to God in a very frightening fashion. Their are a lot of solid Christian leaders who speak out against this heresy.

Respectfully,
IC

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Taz, posted 12-12-2010 2:11 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Taz, posted 12-12-2010 10:05 PM ICdesign has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5039
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 265 of 299 (596071)
12-12-2010 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by nwr
12-11-2010 12:41 PM


nwr writes:

What he is rejecting, is 2,000 years of made up bullshit, held together by only the glue of tradition and by group psychology.

Sorry to be slow getting back. I've been busy. Obviously I don't agree and I do believe that the resurrection in particular is an historic event.

However, what I was suggesting in that he be sure just what he is rejecting. None of us have a lock on all truth and there is a divergence of opinion on many aspects of Christianity amongst Christians. That is no dount a huge revelation to you.

I think many make the mistake of rejecting the Christianity of Jerry Falwell without considering the Christianity of some like CS Lewis or N T Wright. I essentially reject the Jerry Falwell brand of Christianity but I embrace the Christianity of Lewis and Wright.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by nwr, posted 12-11-2010 12:41 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1628 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 266 of 299 (596084)
12-12-2010 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by ICdesign
12-12-2010 6:59 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
ICDESIGN writes:

I assume
the reason this issue is so close to your heart is possibly because you are gay or someone close to you is gay.


You assume wrong. I am neither gay nor have I a close person who is. Sure, I have plenty of gay friends, but they are as close to me as my straight friends.

That's right, this satan worshipping atheist actually cares about what goes on out there besides what affects me personally.

I would just like to say that any Christian who hates another person because of their lifestyle is wrong and walking in sin.

It's not a lifestyle. Some gay people are doctors, some are engineers, some are lawyers, some are construction workers, some are homeless, etc.

The bible teaches us to hate sin but to love the person committing the sin.

Then wouldn't you say that voting by the masses to take away rights of gay people is hating the sin but loving the person?

This hate the sin but love the person is just a rationalization to hate.

Honestly, I hate christianity, but I love christians. So, I'm going to vote to ban christians from breeding. Since christian kids are at the disadvantage of growing up with a delusion, I will help them out by preventing their existence. Honestly, I love christians. I just hate christianity.

Understand why "hate the sin but love the sinner" is bullshit now?

Added by edit.

By the way, the "hate the sin but love the sinner" is another thing that turns me off about religion. It basically justifies doing the worst things in the world in the name of purging the sin. I'm sure those christians who burned those witches to death were really saving their souls because they hated the sin of witchcraft but loved the sinners.

If you're going to hate, at least be man enough to admit it. Don't try to beat around the bush.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ICdesign, posted 12-12-2010 6:59 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ICdesign, posted 12-12-2010 10:50 PM Taz has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 267 of 299 (596086)
12-12-2010 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Taz
12-12-2010 10:05 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Taz writes:

It's not a lifestyle. Some gay people are doctors, some are engineers, some are lawyers, some are construction workers


Yes it is a lifestyle. Being a doctor, engineer and a lawyer is a profession not a lifestyle.

Then wouldn't you say that voting by the masses to take away rights of gay people is hating the sin but loving the person?

Standing against the perversion of homosexuality in the voting arena is not taking away the rights of a person who is gay nor is it about the person. A gay person has just as many rights as any other person.

This hate the sin but love the person is just a rationalization to hate.

Just because you are incapable of separating the two doesn't mean followers of God haven't learned how to. I have learned how and know many people who have learned how also.

Understand why "hate the sin but love the sinner" is bullshit now?

No, can't say that I do. I do see much hate within your heart though Taz.

By the way, the "hate the sin but love the sinner" is another thing that turns me off about religion. It basically justifies doing the worst things in the world in the name of purging the sin. I'm sure those christians who burned those witches to death were really saving their souls because they hated the sin of witchcraft but loved the sinners

Your the one all turned off spewing hatred. I haven't said one hateful thing but look at all your comments. Like all the other hypocrites I see, you do a lot of big mouthing about tolerance and rights but that only applies if they are in agreement with your beliefs.

If you're going to hate, at least be man enough to admit it. Don't try to beat around the bush.

Your obviously the one who needs to man up!!!

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Taz, posted 12-12-2010 10:05 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by crashfrog, posted 12-13-2010 12:30 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 269 by bluescat48, posted 12-13-2010 12:45 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 270 by Taz, posted 12-13-2010 12:45 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 299 (596093)
12-13-2010 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by ICdesign
12-12-2010 10:50 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Like all the other hypocrites I see, you do a lot of big mouthing about tolerance and rights but that only applies if they are in agreement with your beliefs.

What, what rights of yours are at risk? Nobody's writing constitutional amendments to deny homophobic Christians the right to marry.

What the fuck are you talking about?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by ICdesign, posted 12-12-2010 10:50 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2526 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 269 of 299 (596094)
12-13-2010 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by ICdesign
12-12-2010 10:50 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Standing against the perversion of homosexuality in the voting arena is not taking away the rights of a person who is gay nor is it about the person. A gay person has just as many rights as any other person.

What perversion? What rights? A homosexual can't serve openly in the US Military. 2 homosexuals cannot marry each other in 45 states.
What about these rights. There is no reason why these rights should be denied.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by ICdesign, posted 12-12-2010 10:50 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1628 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 270 of 299 (596095)
12-13-2010 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by ICdesign
12-12-2010 10:50 PM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
Haha, thanks for demonstrating my point. Actually, you did better than I thought you would.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


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