Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-18-2019 12:34 AM
25 online now:
DrJones*, PaulK, Pressie, PsychMJC, Tanypteryx (5 members, 20 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 853,982 Year: 9,018/19,786 Month: 1,440/2,119 Week: 200/576 Day: 3/98 Hour: 3/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
15161718
19
20Next
Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 271 of 299 (596279)
12-14-2010 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by articulett
12-12-2010 1:23 AM


Re: my own story WARNING is very long
Willy Wonka's actor has OCD to? Hrm, that's a new one to me. Actually, the wikipedia article states even Maarten Luther allegedy suffered from unpleasant intrusive thoughts.

This is somewhat saddening. I sometimes wonder if many people suffer from it in a mild manner, especially when they are under heavy pressure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by articulett, posted 12-12-2010 1:23 AM articulett has not yet responded

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 575 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 272 of 299 (596610)
12-15-2010 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by GDR
11-29-2010 9:51 PM


Hey GDR,

Sorry about the late reply. I be busy.

Anyway, I read up a little on CS Lewis and NT Wright, and I've concluded that if I were still on the Christian bandwagon, this is the type of Christianity I think I'd most likely espouse. I can see why you like it. (except for Lewis's trilemma; is there such thing as a false trichotomy?)

But unfortunately, I'd no sooner cut off my own arm than make myself abandon reason and believe something for which I can see absolutely no evidence. And again, I think no matter how fervently you believe that "all those other guys" are teaching the wrong kind of Christianity, they're all thinking the exact same thing about you. Thus, we have a scriptural, dogmatic 300-way stalemate within Christianity. You're all scrambling to push each other out of the way when someone like me says, "Would the real Christianity please step forward?" Everything within religion is subjective, and logic tells me to run for the hills.

We have free will. We can choose between self serving love or love for all of God's creation.

Surely you see these two as not mutually exclusive... Are those the only two options in your opinion? Do you need to choose one or the other, or can you enjoy both, or neither?

1/ There is something instead of nothing.
2/ The universe evolved in such a way that Earth came to be in a very finely tuned state so that life could exist.
3/ Basic atoms and molecules came together to form incredibly complicated cells.
4/ These cells had to come together in such a way that not only did plant life evolve but so did animal life.
5/ One of these animals evolved into a creature that exceeded the others in intelligence but was also able to make moral decisions.

I accept that those things happened, but we have to ask ourselves does it make more sense that all that came about by random chance, or was there an intelligence behind all of it.

There is no surety, so yes it is a matter of faith which answer we choose.

Well said, especially the last part.

If there is a creative intelligence behind the existence of our world, then...

However, if the first miracle of creation happened then...

Well GDR, there's a big 'ol elephant in the middle of the room, and its name is if. I commend you for qualifying many of your beliefs in this way (as opposed to literalist theology--if is not included in their vocabulary), and to be perfectly honest, I'd think this is the way I'd think if I were a believer.

Alas, I am not, but I respect your tone and ability to view opposing viewpoints from a rational perspective.

Thanks.

Have a good one.

Edited by Apothecus, : deleted apostrophe


"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964
This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by GDR, posted 11-29-2010 9:51 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2010 11:14 PM Apothecus has not yet responded
 Message 274 by GDR, posted 12-16-2010 11:23 AM Apothecus has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16096
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 273 of 299 (596625)
12-15-2010 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Apothecus
12-15-2010 8:44 PM


I can see why you like it. (except for Lewis's trilemma; is there such thing as a false trichotomy?)

There is, but arguably Lewis didn't commit it. He wrote:

I am trying here to prevent anyone from saying that really foolish thing that people often say about Him, 'I am ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who is merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said wouldn't be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic, on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg, or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice.

Now as he formulated it, the argument is directed against someone who at least thinks that the Gospels are an accurate account of the teachings of some non-mythical person called Jesus.

In which case Lewis has a point. Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels was not just some moral philosopher who went around talking about love and forgiveness. He also made specific grandiose claims about his own cosmic significance such as: "No man shall come to my Father except through me". Anyone who wants to proclaim themselves a fan of the teachings of Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels has to swallow that one too.

It's not Lewis's fault that a zillion halfwitted fundies have skipped this step and gone straight on to the trilemma.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Apothecus, posted 12-15-2010 8:44 PM Apothecus has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 274 of 299 (596658)
12-16-2010 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Apothecus
12-15-2010 8:44 PM


Apotheus writes:

But unfortunately, I'd no sooner cut off my own arm than make myself abandon reason and believe something for which I can see absolutely no evidence. And again, I think no matter how fervently you believe that "all those other guys" are teaching the wrong kind of Christianity, they're all thinking the exact same thing about you. Thus, we have a scriptural, dogmatic 300-way stalemate within Christianity. You're all scrambling to push each other out of the way when someone like me says, "Would the real Christianity please step forward?" Everything within religion is subjective, and logic tells me to run for the hills.

There is no doubt that there are unending differences in the beliefs of various Christian groups. I can see where it makes being part of the atheistic world comfortable, as you have nothing to disagree on, which frees up a lot of time to argue with the theists.

I think the fact that there are differences is an indication that within that framework of belief there is truth. I like what N T Wright says in his talks. He says that "probably about a third of what he says is wrong, but the problem is he doesn't know which third it is. It seems to me that this is true about so much and even in science. As an outsider to the scientific world it does seem to me that the more that is learned the more it is realized how much more there is to know. I love reading about QM and relativity but it has made me realize that the world we live in is nothing like what we perceive.

I think that one of the problems is that religion gets tangled up with nationalism. It makes me a little uncomfortable to see a countries flag and Christian symbols held up together as complimentary equals. Christ taught that ultimately the enemy, (the enemy being evil itself), is overcome by sacrificial love. The message that you are loving someone is difficult to get across when at the same time you are dropping bombs on them. When we try and rationalize God's interest with our national interests then we can wind up justifying all sorts of things in the name of Christianity that IMHO can't be. I think that we can also see this in many of the OT stories.

It seems to me that much of Christian belief is subjective. I believe that the one essential element of the Christian faith is the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Without the resurrection Christianity becomes a Jewish sect IMHO, as Jesus becomes just another prophet. If we accept the resurrection as an historical fact we then start to look at everything else, including the Bible through that lens.

I contend that there is a case to be made for the resurrection, but that case can only be made if one accepts that it is possible at all. If we start from the premise that it cannot happen under any circumstances then obviously we have to look for other starting points for our beliefs.

GDR writes:

We have free will. We can choose between self serving love or love for all of God's creation.

Apotheus writes:

Surely you see these two as not mutually exclusive... Are those the only two options in your opinion? Do you need to choose one or the other, or can you enjoy both, or neither?

I see them as the only two options but I think we all, to varying degrees, favour love of self. Hopefully though, and I believe this to be the case, mankind as a whole is excruciatingly slowly moving away from that. As individuals we make choices everyday that fall somewhere between the two. I keep going back to the basic question of what God wants of us and that is to humbly love kindness and to do justice. (Micah 6:8)

Apothecus writes:

Well GDR, there's a big 'ol elephant in the middle of the room, and its name is if. I commend you for qualifying many of your beliefs in this way (as opposed to literalist theology--if is not included in their vocabulary), and to be perfectly honest, I'd think this is the way I'd think if I were a believer.

I suppose we have to always put in an if, or we will never progress. From your perspective you have to start with, 'if there is no god'. I have to start with, 'if there is a god', but as a Christian I also have to start with, 'if the resurrection of Jesus is an historical fact'.

Thanks for the discussion.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Apothecus, posted 12-15-2010 8:44 PM Apothecus has not yet responded

    
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 275 of 299 (596666)
12-16-2010 12:21 PM


The other argument.
I am just have finished watching the youtube series of evid3nc3. It was a interesting series of video's. It filled some holes for me. You don't always become a true atheist without a gradual process.

I commented there, and detailled my other argument in the comments. I am going to do some copy pasting, to put it on here to.

First things first, my argument leans of a theistic evolutionists view. Young earth creationism also doesn't make sense to me.

A major argument some atheists may hold, but that I largely formed by myself is as follows: we are beings with biological brains. I've seen no evidence or function for a soul. And yet, because we were created with evolution.. Even monkeys display basic vices as jealousy and anger. To summarize, we're flawed by nature. And our rationale is ease to influence as well, and emotions cloud our judgement. I'm just wondering..

In the bible God is shown to be disappointed with humans. It seems he didn't expect it to happen like it did at times. But humans are flawed creatures, and we had to build civilization from the ground up, in a often harsh world. But human cultures that developed independent from each other show the same flaws in humanity. What I am wondering is.. how did God expect this setup to go right? And he would be able to see what would happen before creation.God is also omnipotent, he could create us in a infinite number of ways. And in the end, God found humanity so sinful, that he resorted to have Jesus atone for humanity. And if this does not make sense to me.. And it's the core teaching. If this does not make sense.. nothing does. There also other things I find odd in the bible, that add insult to injury. It makes it seem even more strange to me.

Obliviously, this argument is still very unrefined, but the more I learn about human psychology, and the workings of the brain, the more convinced I get..


Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 12:33 PM Kairyu has not yet responded
 Message 277 by GDR, posted 12-16-2010 2:03 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 276 of 299 (596667)
12-16-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Kairyu
12-16-2010 12:21 PM


Re: The other argument.
And in the end, God found humanity so sinful, that he resorted to have Jesus atone for humanity. And if this does not make sense to me.. And it's the core teaching. If this does not make sense.. nothing does. There also other things I find odd in the bible, that add insult to injury. It makes it seem even more strange to me.

As a Christian, that argument never made any sense to me either, so it seems like a great candidate for ideas to just throw away.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Kairyu, posted 12-16-2010 12:21 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 277 of 299 (596688)
12-16-2010 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Kairyu
12-16-2010 12:21 PM


Re: The other argument.
WSW24 writes:

What I am wondering is.. how did God expect this setup to go right? And he would be able to see what would happen before creation.God is also omnipotent, he could create us in a infinite number of ways.

I think that it is a common Christian fallacy that God knows what I might do on a whim tomorrow. If you read through the Bible God is continuously reacting to what people have done. The various characters in the OT were continuously negotiating with God. Jesus prayed to the Father. What would be the point of prayer if all of creation was pre-programmed?

I believe that God brought humans into existence, (whether by an evolutionary process or not), to be co-stewards of creation. Frankly, we have no idea of what options God might have had in bringing our world into existence.

WSW24 writes:

God found humanity so sinful, that he resorted to have Jesus atone for humanity.

I think that another way of looking at it is this. The ultimate power that evil, as exercised by humans, has over you is death. Jesus showed that in the end evil does not have that ultimate power. Jesus went to Jerusalem knowing full well what would happen, went to the cross, died and came out the other side with a resurrected body. He defeated death on the cross.

Also if Jesus had just died normally, and had not done what he did on the cross and afterwards it would just have meant that He was just another failed messiah or a prophet with messianic delusions. In either case his kingdom message would be meaningless, which in turn would mean that there would be no church in existence today.

Edited by GDR, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Kairyu, posted 12-16-2010 12:21 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

    
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 278 of 299 (596931)
12-18-2010 9:30 AM


dealing with stuff
I have to say, I'm rather relieved I am now open about my atheistic thoughts, but it's still very confusing. Plus I am still a little in limbo. Being atheist has implications on thoughts about the bible, and life in general. I'm still a little afraid to take a firm atheistic stance on them. It's going to take a while before I've sorted it all out.

On a general note, I have been posting in this topic often lately. I would like to post more on the forum, but I am not really really to debate about certain things. Also haven't got much experience in it. Any suggestions?

Now I have taken a definitive stance on it, I could start by reviving my old topic of a few months ago about our biologically flawed nature.


Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 9:48 AM Kairyu has not yet responded
 Message 280 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2010 10:07 AM Kairyu has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1877 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 279 of 299 (596936)
12-18-2010 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Kairyu
12-18-2010 9:30 AM


Re: dealing with stuff
WSW24 writes:

I have to say, I'm rather relieved I am now open about my atheistic thoughts, but it's still very confusing. Plus I am still a little in limbo. Being atheist has implications on thoughts about the bible, and life in general. I'm still a little afraid to take a firm atheistic stance on them. It's going to take a while before I've sorted it all out.


For me, it is all an on-going process.
There are things I have thought about and things I haven't; things I have taken a stance on and things I haven't.
I find it makes life more interesting.

WSW24 writes:

On a general note, I have been posting in this topic often lately. I would like to post more on the forum, but I am not really really to debate about certain things. Also haven't got much experience in it. Any suggestions?


The only real advice I have is: "Don't rush your replies".
I find that if I leave my initial reply for a few minutes, I will re-write it and the quality can be massively increased.
I also find that a second read of the original post can show a misunderstanding on my part. (Accidentally misunderstanding your opponent's point makes your reply worthless.)

And always use the 'Preview' button!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Kairyu, posted 12-18-2010 9:30 AM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 280 of 299 (596937)
12-18-2010 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Kairyu
12-18-2010 9:30 AM


Re: dealing with stuff
Hi WSW24, and welcome to the fray, If I haven't already said it.

Plus I am still a little in limbo. Being atheist has implications on thoughts about the bible, and life in general. I'm still a little afraid to take a firm atheistic stance on them. It's going to take a while before I've sorted it all out.

Naturally. Take things as they come, and don't be afraid to wait for more evidence\alternatives.

On a general note, I have been posting in this topic often lately. I would like to post more on the forum, but I am not really really to debate about certain things. Also haven't got much experience in it. Any suggestions?

Research.

See what you can find to support your position and then check that for validity.

... I could start by reviving my old topic of a few months ago about our biologically flawed nature.

When you do, consider asking yourself what you mean by flawed. A lot of times how you frame a question frames your answer.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Kairyu, posted 12-18-2010 9:30 AM Kairyu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Kairyu, posted 12-18-2010 12:26 PM RAZD has responded

  
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 281 of 299 (596947)
12-18-2010 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by RAZD
12-18-2010 10:07 AM


Re: dealing with stuff
yeah thanks.

The research thing is a little troubling though.I do not know enough sources yet. And I'm only 18, so perhaps it's better I try to debate a little, but sit back and observe for the most part.

Alright, I try to write something in that topic soon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2010 10:07 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 12-18-2010 12:43 PM Kairyu has not yet responded
 Message 283 by RAZD, posted 12-22-2010 9:15 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 282 of 299 (596949)
12-18-2010 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Kairyu
12-18-2010 12:26 PM


Re: dealing with stuff
As long as you keep looking for answers to question as opposed to answers to questions, all will be okay. Beliefs, like life, evolve over time.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Kairyu, posted 12-18-2010 12:26 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by iano, posted 01-03-2011 10:36 AM jar has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 283 of 299 (597645)
12-22-2010 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Kairyu
12-18-2010 12:26 PM


Re: dealing with stuff
Hi WSW24,

The research thing is a little troubling though.I do not know enough sources yet.

A resource for biology\evolution that I like is:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIntro.shtml

This is a well organized website with a lot of information that is up to date with modern science. This should help you vet concepts you see discussed on the various threads discussing biology & evolution from the viewpoint of a university that teaches the science.

A couple of resources for logic that I like are:

http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm and

http://usabig.com/autonomist/fallacies.html

Just reading through them you will likely see how these apply to many arguments that have been made by various people, politicians, and tv advertisements, and help you learn to recognize them in order to review arguments for their value. We don't have the luxury of hands on review of empirical evidence on these forums, but we can look at the logic of the arguments to at least see that they are valid constructions.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Kairyu, posted 12-18-2010 12:26 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3490
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 284 of 299 (598850)
01-03-2011 10:29 AM


One Reason or Many?
The individual who had started the Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion topic is fixated on the idea of one single reason for deconversion.

General question: thinking back on your own deconversion, was it really just one thing that caused it? Or was it many things, which added up to the point of making the final decision? Or one thing that had started the process of discovering many other things that added up to the point of making that final decision?


Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Kairyu, posted 01-03-2011 1:05 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 285 of 299 (598852)
01-03-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by jar
12-18-2010 12:43 PM


Re: dealing with stuff
jar writes:

As long as you keep looking for answers to question as opposed to answers to questions, all will be okay. Beliefs, like life, evolve over time.

The philosophy of the perpetual journey - never to arrive at a destination.

Presumably this belief is subject to evolution?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 12-18-2010 12:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 01-03-2011 10:45 AM iano has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
15161718
19
20Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019