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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4910 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 61 of 299 (593576)
11-27-2010 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 7:27 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Meldinoor writes:
Why doesn't He clearly reveal himself to me, even after many a prayer for Him to do so? Even when I felt his presence during the times when my faith was at its strongest, He never clearly and unambiguously proved His existence to me. If He can present Himself to you, then why can't He do so for unbelievers and those who are struggling with their faith?
God isn't going to appear before you and slap you in the face Meldinoor. Your relationship will always be based on faith. Even the most obvious "God" experiences retains the element of faith.
"Was that God or was that coincidence?" Its always a choice you will have to make.
I think if you would just choose to trust him, read and study his word every day to understand how he thinks and operates, your faith would grow to the point where you would just "know"
beyond a doubt that it is the true and living God that you see at work in your life.
Respectfully,
IC
Edited by ICDESIGN, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 7:27 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-27-2010 8:33 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 67 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 11:08 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 68 by articulett, posted 11-27-2010 11:21 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 62 of 299 (593583)
11-27-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 8:27 AM


cavediver writes:
And if the only gain I had from my Christian life was the love and devotion of my wife for the past sixteen years, then twenty plus years of cognative dissonance is an insignificant price to pay (but don't tell her I said that)
You've just hit on one of the evidences of the veracity of the Biblical record. Cultures and families within those cultures, by and large, have fared the best, overall, of any cultures in the history of mankind.
So then that is why the divorce rate among conservative Christians is higher than in the general population? And the divorce rate among atheists is lower?
Thank you for sullying the loving sentiment of cavediver's post with crass proselytizing. Interjecting assertions about the Biblical record where it was in no way under discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2010 8:27 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 63 of 299 (593584)
11-27-2010 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 8:09 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
"God isn't going to appear before you and slap you in the face Meldinoor. Your relationship will always be based on faith. Even the most obvious "God" experiences retains the element of faith.
"Was that God or was that coincidence?" Its always a choice you will have to make."
Why should "the most obvious God experiences" be indistinguishable from coincidence?
The same cannot be said of most real entities. The evidence for tigers or mustard or bicycles cannot so be dismissed; yet you seem to take it for granted that the supreme author and ruler of the universe should at best never be distinguishable from a meaningless fortuitous concurrence of events.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 8:09 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1579 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 64 of 299 (593585)
11-27-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 6:32 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies just himself.
LOL! So did Frodo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 6:32 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 8:47 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 69 by dwise1, posted 11-28-2010 3:56 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4910 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 65 of 299 (593588)
11-27-2010 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by crashfrog
11-27-2010 8:34 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Crashfrog writes:
LOL!
......your laughter is much louder than you could possibly imagine......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 11-27-2010 8:34 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9361
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 66 of 299 (593589)
11-27-2010 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 6:32 PM


oh really!!
Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies just himself.
Care to start a thread? Start with maybe 10. I think we could have fun with this.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 6:32 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 67 of 299 (593593)
11-27-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 8:09 PM


Catch 22
Hi ICDESIGN,
ICDESIGN writes:
Well of course WHAT you are putting your faith in is only beneficial if it is true.
Agreed.
ICDESIGN writes:
I think if you would just choose to trust him, read and study his word every day to understand how he thinks and operates, your faith would grow to the point where you would just "know" beyond a doubt that it is the true and living God that you see at work in your life.
But isn't this a Catch 22? Before I can trust God, I have to have at least a fairly high level of confidence that He exists. But, according to you, in order to have that confidence I must already trust Him.
Which comes first? The chicken or the egg? The belief in God's existence, or trust in Him? And if either one must be gained before the other, how does one go about gaining either of them?
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
Edited by Meldinoor, : Added a more relevant subtitle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 8:09 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:16 AM Meldinoor has replied

  
articulett
Member (Idle past 3484 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


(1)
Message 68 of 299 (593594)
11-27-2010 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 8:09 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
ICDESIGN writes:
"Was that God or was that coincidence?" Its always a choice you will have to make.
Or was it Satan? Or Xenu? Or muses? Or your dead grandma giving you a sign?
When you don't know something, does it really make sense to decide you actually DO know-- that the answer is "goddidit"?
It sounds to me like a recipe for garden variety confirmation bias... kind of like when Mormons tell you to read the Book of Mormon and pray to God to know if it's true or not. If you feel something (like a "burning in the bosom"), then that is supposed to be interpreted as "proof " from God that the wacky Mormon religion is "the truth". --And if you don't feel anything, you are told to read more and pray harder! I think this method "works" for too many conflicting beliefs to actually be evidence for anything supernatural including the god that you believe in.
Edited by articulett, : No reason given.
Edited by articulett, : still trying to get the hang of formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 8:09 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 69 of 299 (593603)
11-28-2010 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by crashfrog
11-27-2010 8:34 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
ICDESIGN writes:
Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies just himself.
LOL! So did Frodo.
OK, that did it! I now have an avatar.
Circa 1968 head-shop issue button. The common fundamentalist proselytizing catch-phrase at the time was "Jesus gave his life for you".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 11-27-2010 8:34 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by anglagard, posted 11-28-2010 4:30 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 949 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 70 of 299 (593606)
11-28-2010 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by dwise1
11-28-2010 3:56 AM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
dwise1 writes:
OK, that did it! I now have an avatar.
Circa 1968 head-shop issue button. The common fundamentalist proselytizing catch-phrase at the time was "Jesus gave his life for you".
That is just beyond cool.
Oops, gotta go now, seems there is some police Sargent knocking at the door named officer Moose trying to serve me with a Cease and Desist warrant.
Edited by anglagard, : forgot to close the qs

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by dwise1, posted 11-28-2010 3:56 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 299 (593646)
11-28-2010 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 7:29 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Meldinoor writes:
Thank you Buz, I didn't expect you to agree with me on this. Perhaps you do have some good reasons to believe as you do.
Meldinoor, there is an open thread which covers the prophet Ezekiel's predictions. Perhaps this thread could be moved by an admin to the Great Debate. Message 1 could become the OP for our debate.
This would avoid duplicating material already posted. It would also afford us both the opportunity to debate arguments already posted and to interject new points pertaining to our respective positions.
As an opener, my focus in our debate would pertain more to the Ezekiel prophecy and corroborating prophecies of other prophets than on the Lebanon. The Lebanon issue would, nevertheless not be off the table.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Gramatical error.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 7:29 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Meldinoor, posted 11-28-2010 1:51 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4910 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 72 of 299 (593647)
11-28-2010 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 11:08 PM


Re: Catch 22
Meldinoor writes:
Before I can trust God, I have to have at least a fairly high level of confidence that He exists.
Therein lies your problem. Your confidence. The problem isn't a lack of evidence. The world is full of hard evidence that God exists. Even the heavens declare his existence. You are standing there looking at the design claiming it only "appears" to be design. He answers a prayer in your life and you claim it only "appears" like he answered my prayer.
Its a choice Meldinoor. No matter what you choose to believe, its going to be by faith. No matter what evidence is provided to you there will always be a way to explain it away if you choose to do so.
Can you really have a design without a designer? Which choice takes the greater faith?
IC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 11:08 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by frako, posted 11-28-2010 10:22 AM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 74 by jar, posted 11-28-2010 10:37 AM ICdesign has replied
 Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2010 10:51 AM ICdesign has replied
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2010 10:57 AM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 87 by Meldinoor, posted 11-28-2010 12:45 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 11-28-2010 1:03 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 73 of 299 (593649)
11-28-2010 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:16 AM


Re: Catch 22
The world is full of hard evidence that God exists.
Orly so why has not the science community found any ?
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:16 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 74 of 299 (593650)
11-28-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:16 AM


Design without a designer?
ICDESIGN writes:
Can you really have a design without a designer?
Of course you can.
But that has nothing to do with any deconversion experiences.
The issue is whether there is any disadvantage to an experience such as Meldinoor went through?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:16 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:54 AM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9361
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 75 of 299 (593651)
11-28-2010 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:16 AM


More of the same BS
Since you have refused to back up this comment with a thread.
Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies just himself.
I suppose it would be silly to expect you to back this up too.
The world is full of hard evidence that God exists. Even the heavens declare his existence.
You are really good at making big statements. Woefully lacking with any evidence to back them though.
ABE
Can you stay on topic and move these to an appropriate thread? Or are you just hear to proselytize? Let me give you some advice. You are not going to win any converts here.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:16 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:59 AM Theodoric has replied

  
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