Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8927 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-23-2019 9:38 AM
28 online now:
Faith, JonF, PurpleYouko, RAZD, vimesey (5 members, 23 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,269 Year: 15,305/19,786 Month: 2,028/3,058 Week: 402/404 Day: 6/63 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 215 of 255 (722642)
03-23-2014 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
12-02-2010 6:37 PM


Re: What IS prophecy?
Talk about taking things out of context. I'm reading through the thread and I haven't gotten past the first few pages, but in case this hasn't been addressed:

Mathew 24:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Here is what it looks like in context:

Mathew 24:1 - "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple."
2 "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."
5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
6 "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."
7 "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."
8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows."
9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
10 "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."
11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"
16 "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"
17 "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:"
18 "Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."
19 "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"
20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"
21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not."
24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
25 "Behold, I have told you before."
26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
28 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"
33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."
34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Read 33 then read 34 again. 33 says when you see all these things that the coming of the son of man is near and the end is near. Then after all those signs come, "This generation shall not pass". Meaning the end will take place in a generation before Jesus's return.

I'm not sure how someone could miss that if they read the entire chapter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 12-02-2010 6:37 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by PaulK, posted 03-24-2014 2:45 AM lokiare has not yet responded

    
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 216 of 255 (722643)
03-23-2014 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by frako
12-02-2010 7:22 PM


Re: What IS prophecy?
if i where a bronze age person i would make a prophecy like this.

I have been given a vision by the lord for the end of time, it will take place fare in to the future, horsless chariots shall rome the streats, and metal birds will fly trough the sky, at night the streets will be lit by the lords own light traped in a glowing box, and then the mettal birds will turn on man droping eggs containing gods wrath the fire that will come from them will burn cities to the ground and bilnd anyone that looks uppon the flame, the fire will rise to the hight of the tallest mountins. When the fires will die down and the ashes fall to rest only the loliest creatures will survive the bugs, cocroaches and the like will infest the erth as food for the evil satan.

That is a prophecy a bronze age man cannot look at the newspaper and see the date but he can offer a bit of a description of the time and what will happen.

You mean like in revelations where they talk about insects that have metal armor and certain people causing fire to rain down from the sky and fire to shoot out of their swords? Yep. Sounds like modern weaponry to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by frako, posted 12-02-2010 7:22 PM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 03-24-2014 12:39 PM lokiare has not yet responded

    
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 217 of 255 (722646)
03-23-2014 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by arachnophilia
12-05-2010 7:17 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
sure, it'd just look silly coming so late. really, most of biblical prophecy fits this description because the books were last altered, or compiled, well after the subject matter they dealt with. it's possible that this has the affect of adding fictionalization to the accounts -- we really can't tell if isaiah, who lived before the assyrian exile, said what he's supposed to have said when he was supposed to have said it. the prophets themselves don't seem to have written the book, rather, their later disciples. sort of like with christ.

but it's an easy mistake to think that the power of prophecy is in prediction. it's not.

Strangely enough, even Wikipedia agrees that most of the books of Isaiah are up to Chapter 39 are directly from Isaiah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah

Not to mention the circular argument that assuming it wasn't written beforehand gives. "Because prophecies aren't true, the book must have been written after the events described. Therefore the prophecies contained in the book aren't true."

I'd like to see actual evidence that any of this writing and then altering has taken place. Especially since the oldest fragments in Hebrew match up to the modern Greek version. Which says there were no changes between the two and that they were faithfully translated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by arachnophilia, posted 12-05-2010 7:17 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by NoNukes, posted 03-24-2014 9:25 AM lokiare has not yet responded

    
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 233 of 255 (722860)
03-25-2014 2:00 PM


This has been covered and quoted by many people so I'm doing this as a general reply.

[Isa 7:1-25 KJV] 1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, [that] Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.
2 And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.
3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
5 Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, [even] the son of Tabeal:
7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
8 For the head of Syria [is] Damascus, and the head of Damascus [is] Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
9 And the head of Ephraim [is] Samaria, and the head of Samaria [is] Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; [Is it] a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin{almah} shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel{"god with us"}.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; [even] the king of Assyria.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall hiss for the fly that [is] in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that [is] in the land of Assyria.
19 And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
20 In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, [namely], by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;
22 And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk [that] they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.
23 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall [even] be for briers and thorns.
24 With arrows and with bows shall [men] come thither; because all the land shall become briers and thorns.
25 And [on] all hills that shall be digged with the mattock, there shall not come thither the fear of briers and thorns: but it shall be for the sending forth of oxen, and for the treading of lesser cattle.

"Isaiah promises Ahaz that God will destroy his enemies and tells him to ask God for a sign that this is a true prophecy. A "sign", in this context, means a special event which confirms the prophet's words.[11] Ahaz's sign will be the birth of a son to an almah. The word almah has no exact equivalent in English: it probably meant a young girl or woman who had not yet borne a child.[12] So the sign is that a young girl will conceive - or possibly has conceived and is already pregnant, the Hebrew is ambiguous - and give birth to a son; she is to name the boy Immanuel, meaning "God is with us" - the grammar of the Hebrew is clear that the naming will be done by the baby's mother - and God will destroy Ahaz's enemies before the child is able to tell right from wrong.[1]

The almah has been identified as either the mother of Hezekiah or the daughter of Isaiah.[13] There are, however, problems with both candidates: Hezekiah was born well before the war with Ephraim and Syria began, and although almah does not specifically mean "virgin" it probably does mean a girl who has not yet had a child, and Isaiah already has a son. In any case the significance of the Immanuel sign is not the identity of the child and its mother but the meaning of the name ("God is with us") and, most important, the role it plays in identifying the length of time before God will destroy the Ephraimite-Syrian coalition (before the child learns right from wrong).[12]"

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_7:14#The_Book_of_Isaiah

So it couldn't have been one of Isaiah's relatives. Jesus also fulfills this prophecy because both kings are destroyed long before Jesus is born.

Not only that if you look back to verse 8 it gives a total length of time of 65 years for Ephraim to be destroyed ("not a people"). Surely by then the child would not be considered a child and wouldn't be referenced as such.

Therefore it could easily be a prophecy about Jesus.


Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2014 2:28 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2014 2:42 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 237 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2014 2:57 PM lokiare has responded

    
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 236 of 255 (722868)
03-25-2014 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Pressie
03-25-2014 6:25 AM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
Using the book to verify the same book is known as circular reasoning.

Using that same logic using fossils to date geological layers and using geological layers to date fossils is circular reasoning.

We can infer from the writing and references in outside sources that some of these books are nearly as old as they claim to be.

As to Jesus being who he said he was:

http://bobsiegel.net/...surrection-outside-the-new-testament

Same thing. Outside sources identify him and his deeds. You can choose to believe all of these people wrong, or you can choose to believe they were correct. That's your choice, but you can't argue with the facts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Pressie, posted 03-25-2014 6:25 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2014 3:07 PM lokiare has not yet responded
 Message 239 by Theodoric, posted 03-25-2014 4:22 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 250 by Pressie, posted 03-27-2014 3:11 AM lokiare has not yet responded

    
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 240 of 255 (722883)
03-25-2014 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by New Cat's Eye
03-25-2014 2:42 PM


Jesus also fulfills this prophecy because both kings are destroyed long before Jesus is born.

That doesn't seem to fit, to me. It says:

quote:
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin{almah} shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel{"god with us"}.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

So to me that is saying that the child will be born before the kings are destroyed, but the kings will be destroyed before the child grows up.

It doesn't makes sense as saying that the kings will be destroyed before the child is even born. It just doesn't read that way; he's born, he eats butter and honey, but then before he grows up the kings will be destroyed.

It doesn't actually say that either, you are taking that as implied, but its not actually there.

Also if you are correct and Isaiah isn't talking about his close relatives having a child, then it could be any child born at any time from that point on. Meaning any child in the entire country. It could be a child born 60 years from then which would eat the good food and be able to discern what is good food and what is bad food but before he grows up the kings will be destroyed. In other words it reads as nonsense in that way. Any first born child of the time right before the destruction of the kings would fit that description.

The only way you can read it and have it make any sense is that it is talking about some future person being born to a woman who hasn't had a child and the child will grow up after the kings have been destroyed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2014 2:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2014 5:18 PM lokiare has not yet responded

    
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 241 of 255 (722885)
03-25-2014 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by PaulK
03-25-2014 2:28 PM


quote:

Jesus also fulfills this prophecy because both kings are destroyed long before Jesus is born.

You mean that Jesus utterly FAILS to fulfil the prophecy because he was born long after both kings were destroyed.

A sign has to occur before the event or it is useless.

Actually no. Its just as likely that the prophecy was about something else that happens much later. You'll note that the prophecy says 'your enemies' instead of naming the two countries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2014 2:28 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2014 5:13 PM lokiare has not yet responded

    
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 242 of 255 (722889)
03-25-2014 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Theodoric
03-25-2014 4:22 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
Bob doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. The Talmud references to a Yeshua are not in time and place with the bible Jesus. One says he was from 100 BCE the other 200-500 CE. All the references are from the 3rd century CE or later.

Here is some quick info
http://en.wikipedia.org/..._evidence_of_the_historical_Jesus

Josephus is years after and his writings even later. Josephus is not a primary source.

Kapyong, an ex-member here, had a great post that addressed these supposed historical references.
Message 8

Insults and profanity don't help your point, in fact it makes it harder to take your point seriously.

That aside, I see you must not have read his references. He goes through in the bottom half o his article and vets Josephus and his quotes thoroughly by talking about other authors that talk about the original works and Josephus's works. Using the same kind of networking verification used to tell of any other ancient works authenticity, strangely enough he mentions how this kind of verification is widely accepted for anything that isn't Christianity, but when applied to Christianity it is disregarded and Christianity is held to an entirely different standard. Something that seems to be going on here as well.

Edit: Also Jesus was a common name and the link I provided earlier by bob talks about that.

Edited by lokiare, : Forgot to address a point. Editing before replies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Theodoric, posted 03-25-2014 4:22 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Theodoric, posted 03-25-2014 5:46 PM lokiare has not yet responded

    
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1880 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 243 of 255 (722891)
03-25-2014 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by NoNukes
03-25-2014 2:57 PM


[qs]
Not only that if you look back to verse 8 it gives a total length of time of 65 years for Ephraim to be destroyed ("not a people"). Surely by then the child would not be considered a child and wouldn't be referenced as such.

Therefore it could easily be a prophecy about Jesus.

Yikes, bro. You are swimming upstream, but unlike a salmon, there is no payoff for your doing so.

First, that the prophecy is at least about the Ahaz and son is not really questioned by anyone. That ought to at least make you question your reasoning. Christians typically insist on a dual prophecy.

Others have explained why your reading is wrong based on the text. I'm just suggesting that your mistake was completely avoidable.

Second of all, your reasoning amounts to 'Not about Ahaz's boy, therefore easily Jesus? Really? Would the form of that argument convince you if someone else used it about some other topic. For someone who prides himself on the ability to drop the names of fallacies, I find your reasoning here quite amusing.[qs]

Actually I addressed that point. It can't be Ahaz's boy either because it would be 65 years before one of the kings fell, making Ahaz's boy an old man when it happened.

It could as easily be a prophecy about Jesus as any other. Not more easy, just as easy. I find your inability to read what I write equally amusing. The fact you seem to read deeply into my writing things that aren't there should worry you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2014 2:57 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2014 5:25 PM lokiare has not yet responded
 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 03-26-2014 2:34 AM lokiare has not yet responded
 Message 249 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2014 1:50 AM lokiare has not yet responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019