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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2074 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 205 of 255 (671361)
08-24-2012 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by jar
05-18-2012 5:15 PM


jar:

If you think that there is an Old Testament prophecy that is fulfilled by Jesus that we have not already dealt with, please specify the Chapter and Verse and we will take a look at it.

///////

I suggest that the christians and the jewsih people re-think the idea that Christ was the messiah ben David or else worse.

The evidence seems to support that Jesus was a mere man, the suffering messiah ben Joseph and the he was baptized and indwelled by the spirit of Elijah, who departed from him in the Transfiguration when he morphed back into a mortal.

Consider these verses:

They both did the same miracles and had the same experience, etc. And miracles was traditional supposed to identify Elijah when would come back.

John said he was the Elijah, john wa mortal, i.e.; beheaded.
He did no miracles.
He never prophesied.
He could NEVER be accepted as The Great Elijah by the Jews, that is for sure.

Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.

Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.

Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.

Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.

Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.

Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.

Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.

Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.

Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.

Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.

Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.

Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities

Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead

Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.

Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.

Both had miraculous births.

Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd

Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.

Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 05-18-2012 5:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 08-24-2012 2:17 PM kofh2u has responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2074 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 207 of 255 (671377)
08-24-2012 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
08-24-2012 2:17 PM


Re: Topic
?

The OP asks whether any of the prophecies we are to attribute to the messiah ben David were fulfilled by Jesus.

"Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?"

My post infers that no, they were not because Jesus was the messiah ben Joseph and in that capacity all of what was traditionally assumed that the messiah ben Josph would accomplish does seem to have been done:

The Messiah ben Joseph will furthermore win the heathen by the spirit of wisdom and righteousness which rests upon him (Sibyllines, iii. 780; Test. Patr., Levi, 18; Judah, 24; Targ. Yer. to Gen. xlix. 12 and Isa. xli. 1).

He will teach the nations the Noachian laws of humanity and make all men disciples of the Lord (Midr. Teh. xxi.).

The wonders of the time of Moses will be repeated on a larger scale in the time of the Messiah (Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 8, after Micah vii. 15; comp. Hosea ii. 17; Targ.; Tan., Bo, ed. Buber, 6).

What Moses, the first redeemer, did is typical of what the Messiah as the last redeemer will do (Eccl. R. i. 9).

The redemption will be in the same month of Nisan, (at the Passover seders), and in the same night (Mek., Bo, 14); the same pillar of cloud will lead Israel (Philo, "De Execrationibus," 8; Targ. Yer. to Isa. xxxv. 10):

the same plagues will be sent upon Israel's foes (Tan., Wa'era, ed. Buber, 15; Bo, 6, 19; Midr. Wayosha'; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 45);

the redeemer will ride on an ass (Zech. ix. 9; comp. Ex. iv. 20);

manna, (transubstantiation?) will again be sent down from heaven (Ps. lxxii. 16; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 24; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxix. 8);

and water rise from beneath by miraculous power (walk on water)(Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 18; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 15 et seq.; Eccl. R. i. 9).

Like Moses, the Messiah will disappear for... 40 days (and nights) after his appearance (Pesiḥ. R. 15; Pesiḥ. v. 49b, after Hosea v. 15).

The same number of people will be redeemed (Sanh. 111a)
and the Song of Moses be replaced by another song[/b] (New Testament) (Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 1\[b\]; Rev. xv. 3).

But,\[b\] like Moses, the Messiah will die /\[b\](II Esd. l.c.); the opinion that the Messiah will not taste death (Midr. Teh. lxxii. 17) seems to be of later origin, and will be discussed in connection with the account of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph or Ephraim (see below).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5849-eschatology


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 08-24-2012 2:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 08-24-2012 5:25 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2074 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 210 of 255 (671383)
08-24-2012 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Dr Adequate
08-24-2012 5:29 PM


Re: Topic
jar:

Fine, but it still has nothing to do with the topic.

Dr A
Sheesh. Yes it does. There is, after all, a reason why we know that Jesus does not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

//////

I don't get the point.

I am agreeing with the argument that Jesus did not do what was expected of the messiah ben David, and i show that instead, Jesus must have been the suffering messiah bwcause he did do what the traditional expectations were.

What also supports Christ as the Elijah, not messiah ben David was that he used the Elijah Cup, right after the third cup at the seder.
The ONLY ritual Jesus passed down was for us to remember that he used this cup, and had everyone drink from it.

That is even more significant in that the Pharisee and rabbi had stopped debate concerning whether to drink from Elijah's cup when he did not show up for centuries.
They has long set their debate aside and agreed to await Elijah who would advise them onthe matter.

That IS just what happened:

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-24-2012 5:29 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2074 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 212 of 255 (671387)
08-24-2012 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
08-24-2012 6:12 PM


Re: Topic
jar:

Re: Topic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The issue is not whether or not Jesus is the Messiah or anything outside the specific Old Testament prophecies listed.
The question revolves around specific prophecies listed by ICDESIGN and where they were supposedly fulfilled in the New Testament according to ICDESIGN.

/////
/////

Yeah.

He did post his specifics.
You seem myopic and focused on his side of the argument.

But the OP is clearly concerned with what DID Jesus accomplish and did he perform the expectations of the mrssiah ben David.
I am saying, no, he did not.
We still await that messiah ben David.
I am detailing exactly what was expected of the messiah ben Joseph and showing that Jesus did accomplish that.

Why are trying to siulence that point, which seem strong and clear?

What is your response to that point besides trying to censor it????

To support my point, that Christ was the Elijah, returned when Jesus was baptized, I do refer to the Old Testament.
I use 2Kings to show that verse for verse, Elijah and Christ did the same things and behaved the same ways, including the miracles they performed:

1) Both Elijah and Christ raised the dead:

1 Kings 17:22.. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where .Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2) Both Elijah, who never dies, and Christ were immortal:

2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal

John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

3) Both Elijah and Christ. ascended into Heaven before witnesses:

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. .
12..And Elisha saw it,.

Luke 24:.51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven

4) Both Elijah and Christ troubled Israel:

1 Kings 18:17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?

Matthew 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born..

5) Both Elijah and Christ were threatened by the authorities with death:

1 Kings 19:14.. And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of ..I..srael have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and .I. .even I only .am .left..; and they seek my life, to take it away

John 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death

6) Both Elijah and Christ.... were hunted by the Jewish authorities:

1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away

Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?

7) Both Elijah and Christ.... hid in a cave/tomb:

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth...

8) Both Elijah and Christ pondered in the wilderness 40 days and forty nights:....

1 Kings 19:8 And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God

Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

9) Both Elijah and Christ. walked on across the water

2 Kings 2:8.. And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground

Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea

10) Both Elijah and Christ let a person follow them across the water:

2 Kings 2:14.. And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over

Matthew 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.

11) Both Elijah and Christ.... wrote only one thing, a letter, to people on Earth AFTER they had ascended:

2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from ..Elijah.. the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

12) Both Elijah and Christ appointed a successor, Elisha, by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ:

2 Kings 2:9.. And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And ..Elisha.. said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me

Matthew 16:18.. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this .rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

13) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor the power to raise the dead:

2 Kings 8:5.. And it came to pass, as he was telling the king how he had restored a dead body to life, that, behold, the woman, whose son he had restored to life, cried to the king for her house and for her land. And Gehazi said, My lord, O king, this is the woman, and this is her son, whom ..Elisha.. restored to life.
Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and ..prayed..; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up

14) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor the power to heal:

2 Kings 5:10.. And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk

15) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other:

1 Kings 19:19.. So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him.

Matthew 16:19.. And I will give unto thee the keys.of the kingdom.. of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

16) Both Elijah and Christ. asked that the this "cup" be taken from them:

1Kings 19:4 .But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die (because he was afraid of what was coming from Jezebel: [1Kings 19:3]), and said, "It is enough (they seek my life, to take it away: [1Kings 19:10]); now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers."

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, (because he began to show grief and distress of mind and was deeply depressed: [Matt 26:37]), let this cup pass from me (It is enough: [1Kings 19:4]): nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

17) Both Elijah and Christ had miraculous births:

Jewish Encyclopedia:
Three different theories regarding Elijah's origin are presented in the Haggadah: Mention must be made of a statement which, though found only in the later cabalistic literature (Yal?u? Reubeni, Bereshit, 9a, ed. Amsterdam), seems nevertheless to be very old (see Epiphanius, l.c.), and according to which Elijah was an angel in human form, so that he had neither parents nor offspring.
See also Melchizedek.

Matthew1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

18) Both Elijah and Christ destroyed pagan worshippers and priests. Elijah destroyed the priests of Baal; Christ, the Pantheon of Rome, 380AD:

IKi 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

History: Universal Christianity in 380AD:
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years (32AD -1054AD)

19) Both Elijah and Christ were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.

2 Kings 2:2.. I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel
2 Kings 2:4.. I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho
2 Kings 2:6.. I will not leave thee. And they two went on

John 21:17.. He saith unto him the third time,... "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Lovest thou me?"

20) Both Elijah and Christ. condemned a Jezebel:

2 Kings 9:36 Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:

Rev 2:20 ..Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds..

21) Both Elijah and Christ re-dedicated the Israelite people to God by raising up a new altar or temple:

1 Ki 18:30.. And ..Elijah.. said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

22) Both Elijah and Christ chose one man upon which to build his following:

2 Kings 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and ..upon.. this ..rock.. I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

23) Both Elijah and Christ were subject of a three day 'search' for their presence:

2 Kings 2:1 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send.
They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 08-24-2012 6:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 08-24-2012 6:34 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
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