Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8936 total)
28 online now:
Captcass, dwise1, Tanypteryx, Taq (4 members, 24 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 861,696 Year: 16,732/19,786 Month: 857/2,598 Week: 103/251 Day: 56/24 Hour: 1/6


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1 of 255 (593671)
11-28-2010 1:16 PM


In Message 83 of the thread Deconversion experiences ICDESIGN makes the claim that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus.

quote:
ICDESIGN writes:

bluescat48 writes:

You make the statement about fulfilled prophesies, therefore it is up to you to back them up with evidence.

......here are just a few...

Old Testament Prophecy // New Testament Fulfillment

Isaiah 52: 13&14 // John 19:1-3
Micah 5:2 // Matthew 2:1
Isaiah 7:14 // Matthew 1: 18-21
Daniel 9:25 // Galatians 4:4
Genesis 49:10 // Luke 3:23-38
Zechariah 9:9 // Matthew 21 1-4


I'd like for us to step through the examples in order to see if any actually can be supported.

Here is the first example given.

quote:
Isaiah 52:13-14 (New International Version, ©2010)

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant
13 See, my servant will act wisely[1];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[2]—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 52:13 Or will prosper
2. Isaiah 52:14 Hebrew you


The first question must be how those two lines relate to the context. So here is Isaiah 52 in full.

quote:
Isaiah 52 (New International Version, ©2010)

Isaiah 52

1 Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.
2 Shake off your dust;
rise up, sit enthroned, Jerusalem.
Free yourself from the chains on your neck,
Daughter Zion, now a captive.

3 For this is what the LORD says:

“You were sold for nothing,
and without money you will be redeemed.”

4 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says:

“At first my people went down to Egypt to live;
lately, Assyria has oppressed them.

5 “And now what do I have here?” declares the LORD.

“For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock,”
declares the LORD.
“And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore in that day they will know
that it is I who foretold it.
Yes, it is I.”

7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
“Your God reigns!”
8 Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices;
together they shout for joy.
When the LORD returns to Zion,
they will see it with their own eyes.
9 Burst into songs of joy together,
you ruins of Jerusalem,
for the LORD has comforted his people,
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm
in the sight of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth will see
the salvation of our God.

11 Depart, depart, go out from there!
Touch no unclean thing!
Come out from it and be pure,
you who carry the articles of the LORD’s house.
12 But you will not leave in haste
or go in flight;
for the LORD will go before you,
the God of Israel will be your rear guard.

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant

13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.


As you can see, What Isaiah is talking about is Jerusalem, and his audience is Judah, and it is the subject of Judah's future that is the big question.

The period was when Judah sided with Assyria and Syria in their conquest of Israel and Samaria and acted as an ally and almost vassal state. Isaiah was speaking encouraging Judah to change allegiance and oppose Assyria by an alliance with Egypt.

So that is the setting.

Next, look to see if there is anything in the two verses that is really unique and so would be supported by Jesus or imply that Isaiah was even thinking of Jesus?

Well, not that I can see.

Let's look at ICDESIGN's claimed support of fulfillment?

quote:
John 19:1-3 (New International Version, ©2010)

John 19

Jesus Sentenced to Be Crucified

1 Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3 and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.


I certainly don't see support there for a suffering servant acting wisely, or being lifted up, or exalted, or being so disfigured that he was not recognizable as human.

So, unless someone can provide better support than ICDESIGN did I would have to say that this prophecy is not even about Jesus and if it was, it was not fulfilled.

Bible A&E please

Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Edited by jar, : change title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 11-29-2010 2:45 AM jar has responded
 Message 115 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 11:25 AM jar has responded
 Message 144 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 12:29 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3 of 255 (593767)
11-29-2010 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPD
11-29-2010 2:45 AM


Re: Better Title
How bout that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 11-29-2010 2:45 AM AdminPD has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 5 of 255 (593784)
11-29-2010 1:02 PM


Micah 5:2
The next claimed prophecy is Micah 5:2.

quote:
Micah 5:2 (New International Version, ©2010)

2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans[1] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

Footnotes:

1. Micah 5:2 Or rulers


Again, if we look at the quote mined part in context, we can see that Micah is writing to an audience, the same audience as in the first example, the people of Judah during the time of Assyrian expansion.

quote:
Micah 5 (New International Version, ©2010)

Micah 5
A Promised Ruler From Bethlehem
1 Marshal your troops now, city of troops,
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel’s ruler
on the cheek with a rod.

2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor bears a son,
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.

5 And he will be our peace
when the Assyrians invade our land
and march through our fortresses.
We will raise against them seven shepherds,
even eight commanders,

6 who will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
He will deliver us from the Assyrians
when they invade our land
and march across our borders.

7 The remnant of Jacob will be
in the midst of many peoples
like dew from the LORD,
like showers on the grass,
which do not wait for anyone
or depend on man.

8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations,
in the midst of many peoples,
like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
which mauls and mangles as it goes,
and no one can rescue.

9 Your hand will be lifted up in triumph over your enemies,
and all your foes will be destroyed.

10 “In that day,” declares the LORD,
“I will destroy your horses from among you
and demolish your chariots.

11 I will destroy the cities of your land
and tear down all your strongholds.

12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.

13 I will destroy your idols
and your sacred stones from among you;
you will no longer bow down
to the work of your hands.

14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles
when I demolish your cities.

15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath
on the nations that have not obeyed me.”


If you look at Micah 5 (likely not even written by Micah) it is absolutely dealing with contemporary issues, looking for the Nation of Judah to stand up in support of the Nation of Israel against a specific threat at a specific time in history.

So now let's look at the alleged fulfillment.

quote:
Matthew 2:1 (New International Version, ©2010)

Matthew 2

The Magi Visit the Messiah

1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem


Nothing in that about a ruler and certainly nothing about the issue that Micah was addressing.

Once again, all that this prophecy seems to entail is taking stuff out of context and trying to shoehorn it into the Jesus mythos.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-29-2010 3:33 PM jar has responded
 Message 145 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 12:46 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 7 of 255 (593803)
11-29-2010 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Zubbbra25
11-29-2010 3:33 PM


Isaiah 7
Well, since Isaiah 7:14 is the next one on the list, we can go ahead and deal with it.

Like all the others, it is NOT a Prophecy fulfilled by Jesus or even a reference to Jesus but it is another comment on the same topics as in the previous two examples.

We need to remember that Isaiah like Micah lived in turbulent times when the big powers were changing, Egypt waning and Syria and Assyria on the ascendancy. Israel and Samara had fallen and were vassal states of Syria and Assyria, the Tribe of Ephraim had some time before allied itself with Israel and opposed to Judah.

So first, here is the passage used as a prophecy.

quote:
Isaiah 7:14 (New International Version, ©2010)

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.


So is that a reference to Jesus?

Let's look at the quote mine in context.

First the short version ...

quote:
13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.

Note the part in bold and underlined that they always leave out.

It is clear that the child is to be born then and there and that before the child is old enough to know right from wrong, the predictions will be fulfilled, the two nations feared will be in ruin and the Assyrians will be attacking Judah.

But what are the two nations to be feared? They are covered at the beginning of Isaiah 7 ...

quote:
1 When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it.

2 Now the house of David was told, “Aram has allied itself with Ephraim”; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind.


So we have the time, the fact that Israel was allied with Aram (Damascus) and threatening Judah.

So there does not seem to be anything in Isaiah 7 that is related to Jesus in anyway.

Next let's look at the supposed fulfillment.

quote:
Matthew 1:18-21 (New International Version, ©2010)

Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”


Not a single bit that actually seems related to Isaiah 7:14, just more quote mining. verbal gymnastics and tap dancing.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-29-2010 3:33 PM Zubbbra25 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-29-2010 4:19 PM jar has responded
 Message 153 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 1:24 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 9 of 255 (593806)
11-29-2010 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Zubbbra25
11-29-2010 4:19 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
Without even knowing what quotes he used I can say with a VERY, VERY high degree of confidence, 100%.

What I find most sad is that folk such as your friend lose so much of the value of the stories. This was a really momentous time for the people involved and the folk like Isaiah and Micah were much like many today; like the people saying "If we keep on screwing up the environment all hell will result."

When they take the position that the Bible is simply some prelude to Jesus they miss out on so very much, and when they take stuff out of context to support their position, they are simply creating fantasy.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-29-2010 4:19 PM Zubbbra25 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 5:32 PM jar has responded
 Message 12 by frako, posted 11-29-2010 5:38 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 11 of 255 (593810)
11-29-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by hERICtic
11-29-2010 5:32 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
The mere fact though, once you break down the so called prophecies and show them in their context, its obvious that the stories found in the gospels never happened.

I would certainly not go that far at all.

Edited by jar, : fix quotebox


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 5:32 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 7:00 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 13 of 255 (593816)
11-29-2010 6:15 PM


Daniel 9:25
For Daniel, we jump forward about 150 years and several regime changes. The Syrians and the Assyrians have conquered Judah, the Hebrews (many) have been carried off into exile and now the Syrians and Assyrians in turn have been conquered by the Persians. Daniel had been carried off as a child but under the Persians, life for the Hebrews has been quite different than under the hand of Damascus or Babylon. Beginning with Darius and right on through Cyrus the policy was one of allowing freedom of religion and even promoting the return of the Hebrews (many didn't want to go back) and the rebuilding of the Temple.

The actual story of Daniel covers (with lots of redaction and editorial inserts) the period between the end of Babylonian rule and the early Persian Empire.

So once again, let's examine what is claimed to be prophecy of Jesus.

quote:
Daniel 9:25 (New International Version, ©2010)

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.


But what about the context?

Here is the passage in full:

quote:
The Seventy “Sevens”

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”


Note the parts they always leave out.

The Anointed One does get put to death, but has nothing. The City gets destroyed and there will be War until the end and best of all he gets to set up an "abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

Doesn't sound much like Jesus.

And what of the supposed fulfillment?

quote:
Galatians 4:4 (New International Version, ©2010)

4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,


And what is the context of Galatians?

quote:
Galatians 4

1 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.


Nothing at all like what is described in Daniel.

Edited by jar, : fix parentheses


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 15 of 255 (593828)
11-29-2010 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by hERICtic
11-29-2010 7:00 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
None of the prophecies are even in the New Testament.

All that you say may well be obvious to you and if so, then why not start a thread on it and see if you can support your position, but none of it is relevant to this thread or topic.

The Gospels of course will have exactly the same substance as they do now.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 7:00 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 9:18 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 17 of 255 (593852)
11-29-2010 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by hERICtic
11-29-2010 9:18 PM


Good questions and maybe worth another thread but just not relevant to this topic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 9:18 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 18 of 255 (593864)
11-29-2010 10:15 PM


Genesis 49:10
The next so called Prophecy fulfilled by Jesus claimed was Genesis 49:10.

quote:
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

But is this a reference to Jesus?

Let's look at Genesis 49:10 in context.

quote:
Genesis 49 (New International Version, ©2010)

Genesis 49
Jacob Blesses His Sons
1 Then Jacob called for his sons and said: “Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come.

2 “Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob;
listen to your father Israel.

3 “Reuben, you are my firstborn,
my might, the first sign of my strength,
excelling in honor, excelling in power.
4 Turbulent as the waters, you will no longer excel,
for you went up onto your father’s bed,
onto my couch and defiled it.

5 “Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords are weapons of violence.
6 Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed men in their anger
and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.
7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob
and disperse them in Israel.

8 “Judah, your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father’s sons will bow down to you.
9 You are a lion’s cub, Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.
11 He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk.

13 “Zebulun will live by the seashore
and become a haven for ships;
his border will extend toward Sidon.

14 “Issachar is a rawboned donkey
lying down among the sheep pens.
15 When he sees how good is his resting place
and how pleasant is his land,
he will bend his shoulder to the burden
and submit to forced labor.

16 “Dan will provide justice for his people
as one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan will be a snake by the roadside,
a viper along the path,
that bites the horse’s heels
so that its rider tumbles backward.

18 “I look for your deliverance, LORD.

19 “Gad will be attacked by a band of raiders,
but he will attack them at their heels.

20 “Asher’s food will be rich;
he will provide delicacies fit for a king.

21 “Naphtali is a doe set free
that bears beautiful fawns.

22 “Joseph is a fruitful vine,
a fruitful vine near a spring,
whose branches climb over a wall.
23 With bitterness archers attacked him;
they shot at him with hostility.
24 But his bow remained steady,
his strong arms stayed limber,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25 because of your father’s God, who helps you,
because of the Almighty, who blesses you
with blessings of the skies above,
blessings of the deep springs below,
blessings of the breast and womb.
26 Your father’s blessings are greater
than the blessings of the ancient mountains,
than the bounty of the age-old hills.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

27 “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf;
in the morning he devours the prey,
in the evening he divides the plunder.”

28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them, giving each the blessing appropriate to him.


Wow, it seems it is about the Twelve Tribes, where they will be located and what their characteristics will be.

And the support that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus is?

A contrived genealogy.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 12:45 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 147 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 1:00 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 19 of 255 (593893)
11-30-2010 9:56 AM


Zechariah 9:9
Now we come to the last example that ICDESIGN presented, Zechariah 9:9.

Zechariah (it is likely that the Book of Zachariah is actually written by two or three different writers over a period of as much as 100 years) like Daniel is a product of the Persian enlightenment. This was a time when the exile was ended, the Hebrews were returning home, the Temple being rebuilt and the area a semi-autonomous vassal state.

When we get to Zachariah 9 we are most likely reading the work of the Second Zacharia. Chapters 9-11 deal with the period leading up to a Messiah, but not one like Jesus. It is a vision of a return to independence though and the establishment of a Hebrew Great power, through a war lord and conquest.

Now lets look at the cite.

quote:
Zechariah 9:9 (New International Version, ©2010)

The Coming of Zion’s King
9 Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.


And as usual, the quote mined section in context.

First just that section ...

quote:
The Coming of Zion’s King
9 Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
and the warhorses from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow will be broken.
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
His rule will extend from sea to sea
and from the River to the ends of the earth.
11 As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you,
I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.
12 Return to your fortress, you prisoners of hope;
even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you.
13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bow
and fill it with Ephraim.
I will rouse your sons, Zion,
against your sons, Greece,
and make you like a warrior’s sword.

And what comes before Zacharia 9:9

quote:
Zechariah 9 (New International Version, ©2010)

Zechariah 9
Judgment on Israel’s Enemies
1 A prophecy:

The word of the LORD is against the land of Hadrak
and will come to rest on Damascus—
for the eyes of all people and all the tribes of Israel
are on the LORD—
2 and on Hamath too, which borders on it,
and on Tyre and Sidon, though they are very skillful.
3 Tyre has built herself a stronghold;
she has heaped up silver like dust,
and gold like the dirt of the streets.
4 But the Lord will take away her possessions
and destroy her power on the sea,
and she will be consumed by fire.
5 Ashkelon will see it and fear;
Gaza will writhe in agony,
and Ekron too, for her hope will wither.
Gaza will lose her king
and Ashkelon will be deserted.
6 A mongrel people will occupy Ashdod,
and I will put an end to the pride of the Philistines.
7 I will take the blood from their mouths,
the forbidden food from between their teeth.
Those who are left will belong to our God
and become a clan in Judah,
and Ekron will be like the Jebusites.
8 But I will encamp at my temple
to guard it against marauding forces.
Never again will an oppressor overrun my people,
for now I am keeping watch.


Hardly the Prince of Peace.

and after ...

quote:
The LORD Will Appear

14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
16 The LORD their God will save his people on that day
as a shepherd saves his flock.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.
17 How attractive and beautiful they will be!
Grain will make the young men thrive,
and new wine the young women.


This oracle (one of two found in Zacharia) is about the Jewish Messiah, a warlord and prince that establishes a new Jewish super power in the region.

And now let's turn to the alleged support.

quote:
Matthew 21:1-4 (New International Version, ©2010)

Matthew 21
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King
1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:


Note where the support ends and the last sentence ICDESIGN used.

Here is what comes after that colon at the end.

quote:
Matthew 21 (New International Version, ©2010)

Matthew 21
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King
1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:

5 “Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”


IF, and I say if, this actually happened it is just as it says in verses 4&5, a contrived fulfillment, an example of myth building where someone aware of some earlier oracle, intentionally does a minor act to garner legitimacy.

More likely, it is simply quote mining by the writer of Matthew, an editorial insertion.

Even if the story was true though, you can see that what was actually said by the prophet does NOT come true.

So now for a final tally.

ICDESIGN presented six examples claimed to be prophecy fulfilled by Jesus. Not one of them stands up to examination.

Edited by jar, : fix word order mess in next to last sentence


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ICdesign, posted 11-30-2010 11:16 AM jar has responded
 Message 149 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 1:07 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 21 of 255 (593904)
11-30-2010 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICdesign
11-30-2010 11:16 AM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
Since you do not present any support for your position is it reasonable to assume that what I have presented is accurate?

Would you like for us to step through each of your new quote mined verses and look at them in context?

Do you understand that the audience, the readers, are capable of examining what I present and you present to see exactly who is the False Teacher?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICdesign, posted 11-30-2010 11:16 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Theodoric, posted 11-30-2010 11:33 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 25 of 255 (593920)
11-30-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodoric
11-30-2010 11:33 AM


Yet more quote mined verses.
I can try.

Let's start with 2 Timmy.

quote:
2Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY
GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for
correction, for training in righteousness...

The first thing to point out is that the author of 2 Timothy is really unknown.

First, the letter (that is all that Epistle means) is traditionally attributed to Paul, but was more likely written long after Paul's death by one of his followers. Writing things in the style of a well known author and attributing it to that author was a well accepted practice at the time (an even continues, for example one of the best known and often referenced Sherlock Holmes stories is "The Seven Percent Solution" yet was not written by Sir Arthur).

Second, the term Scripture does NOT refer to the Bible or the actual contents of any give Canon, but just to writings that are thought to be inspired by God and that can teach us lessons about morality, ethics, social behavior or conduct.

The author of 2 Timmy understood this well, for example, the Epistles were at the time just correspondence, letters. The only Canonized books at the time, if there were any, might have been the first five books of the Old Testament.

The passage quote mined comes from the end of what is now Chapter 3.

quote:
A Final Charge to Timothy
10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Note in particular that the author returns again to the subject that what really counts is actually doing good work.

2 Timothy is a really interesting read because the common theme throughout it is honesty in belief. It warns against just the things I have tried to point out in this thread, taking things out of context and creating myths. In fact the very next Chapter begins:

quote:
2 Timothy 4 (New International Version, ©2010)

2 Timothy 4

1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.


It tells us to " correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction."; and the reason we should do that is "3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

ICDESIGN and others do not what to hear what I say.

2 Timothy is relatively short, only four chapters and well worth reading in full. It can be found beginning here.

I really hope others will take the time to read it in full and in context.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Edited by jar, : finish first sentence

Edited by jar, : can't even spal "and" rite


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Theodoric, posted 11-30-2010 11:33 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-30-2010 12:20 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 166 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 1:56 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 27 of 255 (593926)
11-30-2010 12:44 PM


2 Peter 2:1
Next look at 2 Peter.

As in several others we have looked at, the actual author and even the approximate period when it was written is unknown.

The subject matter though is was very serious at the time and involved yet another unfulfilled prophecy, the imminent end of the world and return of Jesus. It is one of the first examples of Apologetics found in the Bible.

If we look at the early Pastoral letters from Paul and Peter we see a general belief that the end really is near. For example, Paul's position on marriage in his early letters seems to be based around there just not being enough time to raise kids before the end so just don't bother getting married.

But time passed, the end did not come and so there was a growing movement promoting Jesus as just another failed Messiah.

2 Peter is an attempt to change the perception from an imminent return to some indefinite future event.

Like 2 Timmy, 2 Peter is short, only three chapters and can be found here.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
  
jar
Member
Posts: 31267
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 28 of 255 (593934)
11-30-2010 1:40 PM


Colossians 2:8
The next quote mine from ICDESIGN is Colossians 2:8.

Here is that quote mine:

quote:
Colossians 2:8 (New International Version, ©2010)

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.


Before we get to actually looking at Colossians, I suggest the audience stop and consider who exactly is depending on deception, human tradition and elemental spiritual forces of this world (an interesting subject that gets expanded on in Colossians) so far in this thread?

Like several of the Pastoral Epistles we've discussed, the actual authorship of Colossians has been disputed. It's likely though that it was written by Paul or one of his followers around the time of Paul's first imprisonment.

The letter is addressed to the church at Colossae and was meant to address some of the pagan customs and beliefs that some in the church had adopted.

Here is the quote mined section in context.

quote:
Spiritual Fullness in Christ

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.


But wait, there is more ...

in the next section the author gets to the meat of the subject.

quote:
Freedom From Human Rules

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.


The author here seems to be saying that the show, the carnival that is so typical of the Christianity being marketed today is but a farce, a sham; entertaining perhaps but unrelated to Jesus' real message.

Colossians is another very short letter, only four short pages, and can be found here.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019