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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2747 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 10 of 255 (593809)
11-29-2010 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
11-29-2010 4:28 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
The initial claim was that there was over 300 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. The problem though, is that the apologist would first have to show the events in the gospels occured in the first place!

Without the evidence of these happenings, one cannot claim they came to pass.

The mere fact though, once you break down the so called prophecies and show them in their context, its obvious that the stories found in the gospels never happened. Its midrash. The authors fell back upon the OT and built stories around the earlier ones.

There are prophecies, events and quotes mirrored from the OT to the NT, which became the stories found in the gospels.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 4:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 5:35 PM hERICtic has responded

    
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2747 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 14 of 255 (593826)
11-29-2010 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
11-29-2010 5:35 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
Jar writes:

I would certainly not go that far at all.

I certainly would. If you take away the so called 350+ prophecies (and phrases), there really isnt much substance left in the gospels.

In other words, the story in Matthew of the virgin birth. Lifted from Isa 7:14. If you take that occurence away, no virgin birth.
Micah...no Bethlehem. Pierced hands and feet, crucifixion. Taking his garments, friends deserting him, no bones broken, Passover sacrifice, riding the colt, flight to Egypt, etc. Those are just at the top of my head. How about the actual quotes lifted from the OT which were put in the mouth of Jesus? Its obvious they were lifted from the OT, taken out of context and stories were built around them.

Seriously, if you go "prophecy by prophecy"(many which arent even prophecies to begin with, but "actual" past events retold differently-multiplying the loaves, killing of infants) and then focus on their context, then remove them from the NT, what exactly is left?

Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.


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 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 5:35 PM jar has responded

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 Message 15 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 7:13 PM hERICtic has responded

    
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2747 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 16 of 255 (593849)
11-29-2010 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
11-29-2010 7:13 PM


Jar writes:

None of the prophecies are even in the New Testament.
All that you say may well be obvious to you and if so, then why not start a thread on it and see if you can support your position, but none of it is relevant to this thread or topic.

The Gospels of course will have exactly the same substance as they do now.

I guess I should have said "fulfilled prophecies". But why start a thread, you're doing all the great work! Very well stated your breakdowns. Not sure how its not relevant to the topic though.

Its been stated there are over 300 prophecies in the OT, which Jesus fufilled. Your taking one at a time, showing how they're not prophecies. Are you then suggesting the events described in the NT actually occured and they're just coincidence, that they match up with verses in the OT? My position is that they're not prophecies, but midrash. Verses taken out of context and stories woven around them.

Im not even sure how you can state that the gospels will have the same substance regardless if they're fulfilled prophecies or midrash.

An apologist will state the events occured. I say the events were make believe stories. Huge difference.

But anyway, I'll step aside. I was serious though. Great thread on your part.


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 Message 15 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 7:13 PM jar has responded

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