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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 255 (722684)
03-24-2014 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by lokiare
03-23-2014 9:46 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
Because prophecies aren't true, the book must have been written after the events described. Therefore the prophecies contained in the book aren't true."

Yes, so isn't it a good thing that nobody here made that argument? Now what do we call fabricating arguments so that you can dismiss them?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by lokiare, posted 03-23-2014 9:46 PM lokiare has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 10:24 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 255 (722768)
03-24-2014 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
03-24-2014 10:24 AM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
As a matter of fact, arachnophilia is saying that, which is what lokiare responded to. /ABE Also, kbertsche mentioned it somewhere, and so did I

How much of what you say here is on point?

Kbertsche mentioned it the same way that lokiare did; namely as a putdown of a circular argument. Surely that is not his complaint. And of course if you imentioned it I sincerely doubt that you used the fact that it could not be prophetic as an argument, but If you did, then you were wrong to do so. None of those mentions are germane to the problem I am pointing out.

As for spider dude, I don't see that arachnophilia is using any such circular argument, but I welcome a pointer. And to be clear, there is nothing wrong with mentioning the idea that calling it prophecy is problematic as long as that is not the sole argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 10:24 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 10:24 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 10:25 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 255 (722776)
03-24-2014 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Faith
03-24-2014 10:25 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
I don't think Pressie made the circular argument either.

There are contexts where it would be appropriate. It might well be given as an explanation for why a non believer finds Christians silly. I agree that it is not an appropriate argument for this thread. I just don't see the point in ridiculing the argument until someone makes it.

But arguing that the text was actually written after the predicted events is a perfectly good tactic if you can back it up with evidence and logic.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 03-24-2014 10:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Pressie, posted 03-25-2014 4:44 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 255 (722849)
03-25-2014 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Faith
03-25-2014 5:59 AM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
As quoted in the New Testament, Luke 4, Jesus read from the book of Isaiah when He was in the synagogue at Nazareth, showing that they had a copy there too. That was a hundred years later than the Dead Sea scroll but you can be sure that if they had a copy of that book in Nazareth they had a copy of it in every synagogue in the whole scattered Hellenistic world,

That's a lot to conclude from one copy. But besides that, if you are disagreeing with Pressie, your attempted rebuttal would seem to be pointless, because Pressie concedes that the Dead Sea scroll dates from at 100-150 years earlier than Jesus birth and ministry.

That's evidence that the scroll was well known and well distributed in Jesus' time, which suggests something a lot older than a couple hundred years,

No it does not suggest anything more than a couple hundred years. You're starting with one copy, extrapolating that to a huge distribution and then insisting that 100 to 150 years is not enough time. That seems to me even more of a stretch than what you are complaining about.

And again, it's absurd in the extreme to think you can date any of the scriptures from the last extant copy known.

He does not seem to be doing that anymore.

What Pressie seems to be doing is not just acknowledging the age of the found copy, but inferring something from the fact that no earlier copies have turned up. While that is not strong evidence, at least it is not a logical fallacy. After all, creationist like to argue that no one has found a fossil of intermediate form X; an argument that would seem to have similar limitations to the argument Pressie makes.

So even if you absurdly prefer to date the book far more recently than either the ancient Jews or the Christian Church dated it, you can't date it after Jesus' announces the fulfillment of its prophecy in His time.

I think you are forgetting that the author of Luke is quoting Jesus in a book written after Jesus death rather than having Jesus speak to us directly. That is one problem of the many problems with using the text itself as verification. Anyone in Luke's time who wanted to had the whole OT available to cherry pick from and all of known events of Jesus past life from which to find matches to scripture.

What I am not saying is that the text is wrong. I am saying that using it as verification poses more questions than it answers.

In some respects, I don't see the worth of the argument. Assuming all of the descriptions in the Gospels are true, which is something you must do before even attempting to verify prophecy, there would seem to be more than enough to demonstrate that Jesus was the Son of God without establishing that Isaiah did or did not know of his coming.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 03-25-2014 5:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 255 (722869)
03-25-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by lokiare
03-25-2014 2:00 PM


Not only that if you look back to verse 8 it gives a total length of time of 65 years for Ephraim to be destroyed ("not a people"). Surely by then the child would not be considered a child and wouldn't be referenced as such.

Therefore it could easily be a prophecy about Jesus.

Yikes, bro. You are swimming upstream, but unlike a salmon, there is no payoff for your doing so.

First, that the prophecy is at least about the Ahaz and son is not really questioned by anyone. That ought to at least make you question your reasoning. Christians typically insist on a dual prophecy.

Others have explained why your reading is wrong based on the text. I'm just suggesting that your mistake was completely avoidable.

Second of all, your reasoning amounts to 'Not about Ahaz's boy, therefore easily Jesus? Really? Would the form of that argument convince you if someone else used it about some other topic. For someone who prides himself on the ability to drop the names of fallacies, I find your reasoning here quite amusing.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 2:00 PM lokiare has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:11 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 238 of 255 (722871)
03-25-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by lokiare
03-25-2014 2:53 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
We can infer from the writing and references in outside sources that some of these books are nearly as old as they claim to be.

That's exactly the kind of material that would add some substance to this discussion. Do you care to cite some of these sources regarding Isaiah in particular.

This is not really a thread, where anyone, and certainly not I, am questioning whether Jesus lived or performed miracles. The question is strictly whether Isaiah had any clue about Jesus coming and whether he wrote about it in the book named after him.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 2:53 PM lokiare has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 255 (723043)
03-26-2014 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:11 PM


Actually I addressed that point. It can't be Ahaz's boy either because it would be 65 years before one of the kings fell, making Ahaz's boy an old man when it happened.

Except that your dates are a bunch of hooey. Something like a decade passed between the prophecy, the dual attack and the killing of the kings.

ABE:

I have to question the tactic of proving that Jesus is the Messiah, by arguing that the Bible is actually wrong, and that it did not properly predict what happened to Ahaz. What kind of literal-inerrant Bible worshipper are you?

extra ABE:

I think you may be right about one of the kings not dying right away. But that just causes more problems for Bible literalists.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:11 PM lokiare has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 255 (723126)
03-27-2014 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:11 PM


t could as easily be a prophecy about Jesus as any other. Not more easy, just as easy. I find your inability to read what I write equally amusing.

You did not say "Just as easy". Here is what you actually said:

ISurely by then the child would not be considered a child and wouldn't be referenced as such.

Therefore it could easily be a prophecy about Jesus.

My reading is just fine.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:11 PM lokiare has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 255 (723149)
03-27-2014 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Pressie
03-27-2014 3:11 AM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
You created a straw man argument. You think that we all are ignorant or uinformed about geology. News to you, we have a few geologists on this forum.

Lokiare was not making a straw man argument. He was accusing us of having done so. His point was that you could use the Bible text to verify the text after using outside sources to confirm portions of the text. Just as you can use reference fossils to date layers

But the analogy does not work. The rock aging method does work. But no matter how much time you spend counting Civil War cannon, you will never be able to verify that Rhett Butler told Scarlett, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" using that kind of evidence. Gone with the Wind is still fiction. Just as the Illiad is still fiction regardless of whether Troy existed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Pressie, posted 03-27-2014 3:11 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
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