I certainly don't see support there for a suffering servant acting wisely, or being lifted up, or exalted, or being so disfigured that he was not recognizable as human.
So, unless someone can provide better support than ICDESIGN did I would have to say that this prophecy is not even about Jesus and if it was, it was not fulfilled.
Isaiah is a perplexing book to decipher because of the chiastic, poetic structure, and some of the symbolic meanings in are lost from the cultural setting because of it being in a different era and by the translation from the original language. Adding to the difficulty, Isaiah goes back and forth to the current circumstances, to near future events, to end times scenarios, often in the same chapters. Jewish and Christian scholars are still trying to decipher all of its meanings.
However, there is a consensus in Christianity that the 'suffering servant' was Jesus Christ. If Jesus was betrayed by one of his followers, humiliated by his captors, stripped, flogged with a cat 'o nine tails and had thorns driven into his scalp after being in the Garden of Gethsemane all night while sweating drops of blood from anguish, this torment would be very disfiguring and dehumanizing. It is 'wise' in that he did not yield to the temptation to not 'drink from the bitter cup' and avoid being crucified, thereby making the atoning sacrifice. 'Lifted up' meant being nailed to a cross and being lifted up. After Jesus was resurrected, he became exalted. So according to Christianity, it was fulfilled.
If you have been given that same answer a dozen times already, my apologies. I haven't read the entire thread yet.
I think the thread was an interesting one and it might be worth taking the time to read through it before trying to tackle any one of the examples. More of the so called prophecies from Isaiah are touched on as well as a discussion of how I believe the term "Prophesy" is misused by many chapters of Club Christian.
Yes this is an interesting topic. I haven't read enough of the thread yet to understand your take on the word "Prophesy." I will do so before responding to the initial post again. What does 'Club Christian' mean? Is this the same thing as the fundamentalists?
The next so called Prophecy fulfilled by Jesus claimed was Genesis 49:10.
quote:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.
But is this a reference to Jesus?
Let's look at Genesis 49:10 in context....
....Wow, it seems it is about the Twelve Tribes, where they will be located and what their characteristics will be.
And the support that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus is?
A contrived genealogy.
There are some sects that support these claims. British-Israelism is one example, though some of its sub-sects were very racist against Jews. There are also some Jews that support this theory, (like britam.org) though not mainstream. Both believe that all the European royalty descended from King David, thus Judah, although I haven't researched this enough to know whether their claims have any merit. This would also make a good topic for a thread, like where are the 'lost tribes' now?
I don't agree with the Nicene creed. The pagan emperor, Constantine, favored Anthanasius' position over Arius' opinion regarding the nature of the godhead. Nor do I understand why Martin Luther took it with him in the reformation movement.
It is my understanding that he was a sun-worshiper and had a deathbed baptism (though hotly-debated). But whether true or not, my personal opinion is that he used Christianity as a political tool, especially in light of his murdering his wife and son. But you're right, its off-topic.
I agree with that point. However, I personally believe this merging of the church with political power was what corrupted the faith and was foretold in Timothy. I think Christianity would have spread regardless. It was spreading rapidly and many Christians died in the Roman Colosseum prior to Constantine coming to power. He couldn't stop the movement so he took advantage of it. But again, that is my personal opinion. Jesus did not try to flatter the political powers of his day, but had the attitude of 'rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's, and to what is God's to God'. I doubt he appreciated his church becoming a political tool and the use of military might to force conversions, or the the employment of Inquisitions to torture people. He never forced anything on anyone, but respected the principle of free-will. Not to mention the history of antisemitism. After all, Jesus was a Jew.
Re: bottom line And rightly so since Jesus does not meet any of the requirements to be a messiah.
I know I haven't quite read all this thread in its entirety yet by pulling up this old post, but I found this concept intriguing. You say that you are Christian but you don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I would like to understand this. I thought it was mutually exclusive in that either one believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and because of that one is a Christian, I thought this was the basis for being Christian, though perhaps erroneously. I am aware that in Judaism, they believe that coming of the Messiah is something that hasn't happened yet and is a future event. And Christ being the Savior is simply nonsense if one is an atheist or believes in Buddhism, Hinduism or etc. And that Jesus is just a prophet according to Islam. How is a Christian defined in your viewpoint? I see that it isn't conventional, but neither was Jesus, so that is not a negative. Please enlighten me about your confines/ perimeters of being a Christian, if there are any.
Thank you for clarifying your views.I have read about the Bar Kokhba revolt against Roman rule. I will have to disagree (though amicably with this position) even though it was an impressive campaign due to it lasting only 2-3 years. I personally believe that when the true Messiah comes, it will be an eternal governance.
I agree with a poster (now inactive) who brought up passages from Zechariah that pointed out that the Messiah was an end of the world event and would be fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Yet, I do appreciate your response.
Yes, I agrree. iI is either unfulfilled or failed. I am still trying to catch up with this thread and read and compose an opinion on Issiah 52.
There are some brilliant members on here, but unfortunately, I don't think I can pull their multitasking skills off in the same manner without using tactics that play on on the defense mechanisms of others. I am here to gain/share knowledge, so when I finish reviewing Zachariah, I will post a response to this particular message. What comes to mind, is that this particular book tries to demonstrate that the Jews will reject the Messiah (JC) because he didnt wage a revolt against Roman oppression.
[Hyroglypx]Seems to me there are a few ways to interpret the evidence. One could very obviously make comparisons to the Suffering Servant with Jesus prima facie, but then, it is also vague.
The alternative was that Jesus set out to create a self-fulfilling prophecy for himself, intentionally trying to draw comparisons between himself and messianic literature.
I don't dispute this. To believe in that JC was the Messiah would require a personal, spiritual experience. I cannot provide that. I can choose to debunk my owns spiritual experience as a mental deficiency or accept it. If I am found to be mentally deranged, then there is no need to regard anything I have posted. I am fine with that, and the ridicule such a statement will obviously bring.
Or the authors and marketers of the new religion tried to shoehorn older material into the new mythos called Christianity
Perhaps. It is either that or it is genuine. I used to read the posts between the Jews for Judaism and their nemesis, the Jews for Jesus, websites debating this very point, though it has been a long time so I don't know if they are still at it. Both had compelling arguments for their respective sides.
...The idea that God had to leave clues in obscure language with a people that have been dead for thousands and thousands of years for folk today or even in our future is just plain silly. God is perfectly capable of reaching folk today in our own media and those living in the future in theirs.
I disagree that it is silly because God would reveal the 'end-game' to his closest servants and instruct them to write it and make records for future generations that 'have ears to hear' the messages.
I do agree that God is very capable of reaching folks today. According to the bible, God speaks through prophets. So knowing God's words for modern times would necessitate a search for one. The problem arises when separating the false prophets from a true one. However, if the bible is used as an example, history shows that the general populace does not listen to the prophet until it is too late.