Message 212 of 255 (671387) 08-24-2012 6:29 PM

Reply to: Message 211 by jar 08-24-2012 6:12 PM

Re: Topic
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The issue is not whether or not Jesus is the Messiah or anything outside the specific Old Testament prophecies listed.
The question revolves around specific prophecies listed by ICDESIGN and where they were supposedly fulfilled in the New Testament according to ICDESIGN.

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Yeah.

He did post his specifics.
You seem myopic and focused on his side of the argument.

But the OP is clearly concerned with what DID Jesus accomplish and did he perform the expectations of the mrssiah ben David.
I am saying, no, he did not.
We still await that messiah ben David.
I am detailing exactly what was expected of the messiah ben Joseph and showing that Jesus did accomplish that.

Why are trying to siulence that point, which seem strong and clear?

What is your response to that point besides trying to censor it????

To support my point, that Christ was the Elijah, returned when Jesus was baptized, I do refer to the Old Testament.
I use 2Kings to show that verse for verse, Elijah and Christ did the same things and behaved the same ways, including the miracles they performed:

1) Both Elijah and Christ raised the dead:

1 Kings 17:22.. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where .Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2) Both Elijah, who never dies, and Christ were immortal:

2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal

John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

3) Both Elijah and Christ. ascended into Heaven before witnesses:

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. .
12..And Elisha saw it,.

Luke 24:.51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven

4) Both Elijah and Christ troubled Israel:

1 Kings 18:17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?

Matthew 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born..

5) Both Elijah and Christ were threatened by the authorities with death:

1 Kings 19:14.. And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of ..I..srael have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and .I. .even I only .am .left..; and they seek my life, to take it away

John 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death

6) Both Elijah and Christ.... were hunted by the Jewish authorities:

1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away

Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?

7) Both Elijah and Christ.... hid in a cave/tomb:

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth...

8) Both Elijah and Christ pondered in the wilderness 40 days and forty nights:....

1 Kings 19:8 And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God

Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

9) Both Elijah and Christ. walked on across the water

2 Kings 2:8.. And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground

Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea

10) Both Elijah and Christ let a person follow them across the water:

2 Kings 2:14.. And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over

Matthew 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.

11) Both Elijah and Christ.... wrote only one thing, a letter, to people on Earth AFTER they had ascended:

2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from ..Elijah.. the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

12) Both Elijah and Christ appointed a successor, Elisha, by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ:

2 Kings 2:9.. And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And ..Elisha.. said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me

Matthew 16:18.. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this .rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

13) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor the power to raise the dead:

2 Kings 8:5.. And it came to pass, as he was telling the king how he had restored a dead body to life, that, behold, the woman, whose son he had restored to life, cried to the king for her house and for her land. And Gehazi said, My lord, O king, this is the woman, and this is her son, whom ..Elisha.. restored to life.
Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and ..prayed..; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up

14) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor the power to heal:

2 Kings 5:10.. And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk

15) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other:

1 Kings 19:19.. So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him.

Matthew 16:19.. And I will give unto thee the keys.of the kingdom.. of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

16) Both Elijah and Christ. asked that the this "cup" be taken from them:

1Kings 19:4 .But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die (because he was afraid of what was coming from Jezebel: [1Kings 19:3]), and said, "It is enough (they seek my life, to take it away: [1Kings 19:10]); now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers."

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, (because he began to show grief and distress of mind and was deeply depressed: [Matt 26:37]), let this cup pass from me (It is enough: [1Kings 19:4]): nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

17) Both Elijah and Christ had miraculous births:

Jewish Encyclopedia:
Three different theories regarding Elijah's origin are presented in the Haggadah: Mention must be made of a statement which, though found only in the later cabalistic literature (Yal?u? Reubeni, Bereshit, 9a, ed. Amsterdam), seems nevertheless to be very old (see Epiphanius, l.c.), and according to which Elijah was an angel in human form, so that he had neither parents nor offspring.
See also Melchizedek.

Matthew1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

18) Both Elijah and Christ destroyed pagan worshippers and priests. Elijah destroyed the priests of Baal; Christ, the Pantheon of Rome, 380AD:

IKi 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

History: Universal Christianity in 380AD:
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years (32AD -1054AD)

19) Both Elijah and Christ were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.

2 Kings 2:2.. I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel
2 Kings 2:4.. I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho
2 Kings 2:6.. I will not leave thee. And they two went on

John 21:17.. He saith unto him the third time,... "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Lovest thou me?"

20) Both Elijah and Christ. condemned a Jezebel:

2 Kings 9:36 Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:

Rev 2:20 ..Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds..

21) Both Elijah and Christ re-dedicated the Israelite people to God by raising up a new altar or temple:

1 Ki 18:30.. And ..Elijah.. said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

22) Both Elijah and Christ chose one man upon which to build his following:

2 Kings 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and ..upon.. this ..rock.. I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

23) Both Elijah and Christ were subject of a three day 'search' for their presence:

2 Kings 2:1 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send.
They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.

Message 213 of 255 (671389) 08-24-2012 6:34 PM

Reply to: Message 212 by kofh2u 08-24-2012 6:29 PM

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Note: Following message 214 was spam and was deleted. - Adminnemooseus

Message 215 of 255 (722642) 03-23-2014 9:09 PM

Reply to: Message 61 by jar 12-02-2010 6:37 PM

Mathew 24:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Here is what it looks like in context:

Mathew 24:1 - "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple."
2 "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."
5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
6 "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."
7 "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."
8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows."
9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
10 "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."
11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"
16 "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"
17 "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:"
18 "Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."
19 "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"
20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"
21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not."
24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
25 "Behold, I have told you before."
26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
28 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"
33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."
34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Read 33 then read 34 again. 33 says when you see all these things that the coming of the son of man is near and the end is near. Then after all those signs come, "This generation shall not pass". Meaning the end will take place in a generation before Jesus's return.

I'm not sure how someone could miss that if they read the entire chapter.

Message 216 of 255 (722643) 03-23-2014 9:15 PM

Reply to: Message 62 by frako 12-02-2010 7:22 PM

You mean like in revelations where they talk about insects that have metal armor and certain people causing fire to rain down from the sky and fire to shoot out of their swords? Yep. Sounds like modern weaponry to me.

Message 217 of 255 (722646) 03-23-2014 9:46 PM

Reply to: Message 78 by arachnophilia 12-05-2010 7:17 PM

Strangely enough, even Wikipedia agrees that most of the books of Isaiah are up to Chapter 39 are directly from Isaiah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah

Not to mention the circular argument that assuming it wasn't written beforehand gives. "Because prophecies aren't true, the book must have been written after the events described. Therefore the prophecies contained in the book aren't true."

I'd like to see actual evidence that any of this writing and then altering has taken place. Especially since the oldest fragments in Hebrew match up to the modern Greek version. Which says there were no changes between the two and that they were faithfully translated.

Message 218 of 255 (722656) 03-24-2014 2:45 AM

Reply to: Message 215 by lokiare 03-23-2014 9:09 PM

quote:

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Read 33 then read 34 again. 33 says when you see all these things that the coming of the son of man is near and the end is near. Then after all those signs come, "This generation shall not pass". Meaning the end will take place in a generation before Jesus's return.

I'm not sure how someone could miss that if they read the entire chapter.

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If you read the entire chapter it's clear that these are the events leading up to the destruction of the Herodian Temple - which occurred in 70 AD. (Read verses 1-3)

And I can't see how it's "clear" that it means some distant future generation rather than the generation living at the time. (In English, if some future generation were meant "that generation" would be the more usual wording, while "this generation" would mean the - then - present generation).

Of course, Daniel 8 places the "End Times" in the period of the Diadochi kingdoms, the last of which (Ptolomaic Egypt) was annexed by Rome in 30 BC.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

Message 219 of 255 (722684) 03-24-2014 9:25 AM

Reply to: Message 217 by lokiare 03-23-2014 9:46 PM

Yes, so isn't it a good thing that nobody here made that argument? Now what do we call fabricating arguments so that you can dismiss them?

Message 220 of 255 (722696) 03-24-2014 10:24 AM

Reply to: Message 219 by NoNukes 03-24-2014 9:25 AM

Oh but that HAS been said here, maybe on another thread. [ABE: As a matter of fact, arachnophilia is saying that, which is what lokiare responded to. /ABE] Also, kbertsche mentioned it somewhere, and so did I, that the dates often accepted for various books these days were assigned by people who didn't believe in prophecy and even said that's why they assigned them. Bruce Metzger, famous Bible scholar, said that in so many words.

ABE: Oh yes, Pressie made the argument that the books were written after the events prophesied. Other thread I guess.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 221 of 255 (722711) 03-24-2014 12:39 PM

Reply to: Message 216 by lokiare 03-23-2014 9:15 PM

quote:

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And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. (verses 7-10)

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Message 222 of 255 (722768) 03-24-2014 9:11 PM

Reply to: Message 220 by Faith 03-24-2014 10:24 AM

How much of what you say here is on point?

Kbertsche mentioned it the same way that lokiare did; namely as a putdown of a circular argument. Surely that is not his complaint. And of course if you imentioned it I sincerely doubt that you used the fact that it could not be prophetic as an argument, but If you did, then you were wrong to do so. None of those mentions are germane to the problem I am pointing out.

As for spider dude, I don't see that arachnophilia is using any such circular argument, but I welcome a pointer. And to be clear, there is nothing wrong with mentioning the idea that calling it prophecy is problematic as long as that is not the sole argument.

Message 223 of 255 (722773) 03-24-2014 10:24 PM

Reply to: Message 222 by NoNukes 03-24-2014 9:11 PM

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 224 of 255 (722774) 03-24-2014 10:25 PM

Reply to: Message 222 by NoNukes 03-24-2014 9:11 PM

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 225 of 255 (722776) 03-24-2014 10:35 PM

Reply to: Message 224 by Faith 03-24-2014 10:25 PM

There are contexts where it would be appropriate. It might well be given as an explanation for why a non believer finds Christians silly. I agree that it is not an appropriate argument for this thread. I just don't see the point in ridiculing the argument until someone makes it.

But arguing that the text was actually written after the predicted events is a perfectly good tactic if you can back it up with evidence and logic.

Message 226 of 255 (722785) 03-25-2014 4:44 AM

Reply to: Message 225 by NoNukes 03-24-2014 10:35 PM

Yes. Sure can.

It's the oldest complete scroll of the copy of the Book of Isiah to have been found, it dates to 100 to 150 BC.

All the information found everywehre. Even on Wiki.

The logical conclusion is that nobody knows exactly when the original books were written; we don't exactly know who wrote them; we don't know whether the copies (oldest dated to 100 to 150 BC) are accurate or not.

No circular logic involved at all.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Message 227 of 255 (722790) 03-25-2014 5:59 AM

Reply to: Message 226 by Pressie 03-25-2014 4:44 AM

That's evidence that the scroll was well known and well distributed in Jesus' time, which suggests something a lot older than a couple hundred years, and fully recognized as the word of God, part of the standard Jewish canon.

And besides that, He is reading from a portion of that book that prophesies of the coming of the Messiah. He reads the section and then He tells them He Himself is the fulfillment of that prophecy:

So even if you absurdly prefer to date the book far more recently than either the ancient Jews or the Christian Church dated it, you can't date it after Jesus' announces the fulfillment of its prophecy in His time.

And again, it's absurd in the extreme to think you can date any of the scriptures from the last extant copy known.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.